EPTIs it worth it to scourge and infest CCs? - Page 5
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wurm
Philippines2296 Posts
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
On January 29 2009 17:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because you can just "do" this I honestly might be the player to infest the most ccs ever. ive built infesteds in more than 100 different games. ive tried to do all kinds of cute shit with them, with swarm, scv drops, supply depot drops, etc. in something like 5% of the time ive built them, its been worth it. ive had games where I built 29 infesteds and killed something like 14 marines and 2 tanks with them. thanks man, interesting to know. i was trying to imagine Infested Terran with Ling and Ultra under a Dark Swarm. if i ever get teh chance ill use it. but i can only imagine it being against a player youre already significantly defeating and are just using them to ground him into dirt. who knows though  | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
But if you're really seeking improvement, doing everything textbook is the way to go and this wouldn't probably be recommended, so it's really up to your personal preferences it's fun being cute every once in a while | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
On January 29 2009 00:15 sixghost wrote: You're assume those 6 scourge would even do anything later in the game. And what else would be to point of having the queen? I'm arguing that this is a way to deal definate damage to a terran. Half the time when you attack a T's expo they just lift the CC and the scvs run away losing maybe 3-4 while the T comes back to clean up the lings and goes right back to mining. Sure if you could guarentee those 6 scourge would kill 3 vessels later on in the game, then no it's not a good use of the money, but realisitically 50% of scourges never do anything but get shreaded by mnm, and knowing that you are looking to do this, what is stopping you from just not making 1 extra ultra or lurker, and making 6 more scourges to replace these. This take away one of T's greatest strengths, and doesnt cost way too much. And hydras? What? Are you serious? 6 scourge wouldn't have anything to do in late game zvt? Are you a D- player? If you don't keep hydras with your army and you don't have scourge, vessels are going to rape the shit out of your lurkers, ultras, and defilers. ... sometimes scourge get shredded by mnm; this is due to bad scourge micro. You shouldn't be sending your scourge to their deaths when your opponents vessels are well guarded and his marines are preoccupied by your attack. Not to mention the fact that even if half of them are going to get shredded, that means half of them went off to kill vessels, where by the queen method none of them would have been killing vessels. As we saw in the chill tl attack ep, infested terrans don't really have enough health to be very useful because they'll just die to mnm before getting into range. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
On January 29 2009 22:01 cUrsOr wrote: thanks man, interesting to know. i was trying to imagine Infested Terran with Ling and Ultra under a Dark Swarm. if i ever get teh chance ill use it. but i can only imagine it being against a player youre already significantly defeating and are just using them to ground him into dirt. who knows though The Infested Terrans will just end up killing all your lings and ultras. | ||
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CursOr
United States6335 Posts
i thought the splash dmg wouldnt hurt zerg units, kinna like a scarab. would be much better unit. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
Second of all, even if you have 6 scourges and a queen its not an "insta-infested-cc-no-risk-involved". If you aren't necessarily ahead and you just ran around with your army and harassed an expo to force him to lift, I'm fairly certain first thing Terran would have on his mind is either A. simply crush your main if possible or B. eradicate the threat at his expo (and if you don't have your scourges already at the expo waiting for him to lift then you're shit out of luck because marines will be there in an instant). Ultimately what I'm getting at here is you not only have to succeed at getting him to lift: you have to hit his expansion and hope its undefended or poorly defended or that your army can just walk over his and get to his expo (if that's the case just win the game and put the poor soul out of his misery). And if you make the scourge (assuming you didn't need them at the time for vessel control) and don't get the CC to lift, well at that time it's just a waste. If it is a close game etc and mineral counts are low but you happen to have the gas etc and the game is playing out something like you harass an expo he moves his army to defend it over and over again well then you could plan ahead, out smart him, and get the job done. Even if it doesn't necessary mean he's dead, perhaps he'll just leave because he's pissed he was made a mockery of. But if you ever did want to do the infest thing, something much more logical is just to make a queen. One (1). Cracklings bring CCs down pretty fast so odds are you'll be able to do enough damage to it before it lifts in order to infest it. ESPECIALLY if you keep the Terran's hands full with a diversion of sorts. Regardless, if you make a queen: make it somewhat worth while and don't just make its sole purpose to infest a CC at some point in the game. Use some parasites, ensnare maybe - if you use it well. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On January 29 2009 17:50 Liquid`Drone wrote: yes because you can just "do" this I honestly might be the player to infest the most ccs ever. ive built infesteds in more than 100 different games. ive tried to do all kinds of cute shit with them, with swarm, scv drops, supply depot drops, etc. in something like 5% of the time ive built them, its been worth it. ive had games where I built 29 infesteds and killed something like 14 marines and 2 tanks with them. How about lord drops on the back of the army while you attack with ling/ultra. Think of it like zeal bombs. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 30 2009 01:40 koreasilver wrote: The Infested Terrans will just end up killing all your lings and ultras. Well instead you could just put 8 Infested terrans in an overlord and then send it into the terrans main and drop one by one so they auto-suicide on the nearest buildings :p | ||
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Dgtl
Canada889 Posts
On January 30 2009 09:39 Amber[LighT] wrote: Well instead you could just put 8 Infested terrans in an overlord and then send it into the terrans main and drop one by one so they auto-suicide on the nearest buildings :p That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: First of all, if you get the CC to lift off odds are you did enough damage to the Terran without needing to waste gas/larva on scourge and a queen. Most Zergs nowadays make a queen or two for ensnare purposes in mid game anyway, Queens nest is built anyway because of hive, and most non-Progamer Terrans are usually too distracted to lift up the CC instantly (maybe after crackling lowers the life a bit) , only a few scourges are needed imo. Really depends on the situation but I think people are overexaggerating the cost of infestation really. On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: Second of all, even if you have 6 scourges and a queen its not an "insta-infested-cc-no-risk-involved". If you aren't necessarily ahead and you just ran around with your army and harassed an expo to force him to lift, I'm fairly certain first thing Terran would have on his mind is either A. simply crush your main if possible or B. eradicate the threat at his expo (and if you don't have your scourges already at the expo waiting for him to lift then you're shit out of luck because marines will be there in an instant). Infestation or not, if he has the power to crush Zerg's main, infestation is not going to change anything. Just because you took out a T's expo does not mean he is always able to retaliate, its very situational. On January 30 2009 04:26 Star.Dj wrote: Ultimately what I'm getting at here is you not only have to succeed at getting him to lift: you have to hit his expansion and hope its undefended or poorly defended or that your army can just walk over his and get to his expo (if that's the case just win the game and put the poor soul out of his misery). And if you make the scourge (assuming you didn't need them at the time for vessel control) and don't get the CC to lift, well at that time it's just a waste. You DO realize that ultralings can take out a pretty well defended T expo right? Combine Dark Swarm with ultraling and T needs lots of vessels and a bigger army to eliminate the threat. Don't assume that just because Z has the strength to overrun a well defended T expo automatically means that he is strong enough to end the game. There are many many games when Z has a superior ground army (ultraling + plague + swarm) vs (sk Terran) but the amount of Vessels T has allows it to slowly take out the huge Z army by irradiate with its inferior ground army. | ||
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Amber[LighT]
United States5078 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:28 Dgtl wrote: That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT If you infested a CC chances are you're doing much better than your opponent. | ||
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Star.Dj
United States71 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:47 AzureEye wrote: 1. Most Zergs nowadays make a queen or two for ensnare purposes in mid game anyway, Queens nest is built anyway because of hive, and most non-Progamer Terrans are usually too distracted to lift up the CC instantly (maybe after crackling lowers the life a bit) , only a few scourges are needed imo. Really depends on the situation but I think people are overexaggerating the cost of infestation really. 2. Infestation or not, if he has the power to crush Zerg's main, infestation is not going to change anything. Just because you took out a T's expo does not mean he is always able to retaliate, its very situational. 3. You DO realize that ultralings can take out a pretty well defended T expo right? Combine Dark Swarm with ultraling and T needs lots of vessels and a bigger army to eliminate the threat. Don't assume that just because Z has the strength to overrun a well defended T expo automatically means that he is strong enough to end the game. There are many many games when Z has a superior ground army (ultraling + plague + swarm) vs (sk Terran) but the amount of Vessels T has allows it to slowly take out the huge Z army by irradiate with its inferior ground army. 1. At the bottom of my original post I stated making a queen & using it for ensnare or parasite etc would be viable - don't just make the queen for the sole purpose of infesting a future maybe-will-be-damaged-enough command center. 2. & 3. If the Terran isn't able to retaliate or defend the expansion, why even bother scourging? The command center was lifted, if it was harmed significantly enough - sure, infest it if you have a queen. If it wasn't damaged that doesn't mean you need to go and waste scourges to completely eliminate an already disabled expansion. If it takes just a single scourge or two and you feel like you can spare them, fine use scourges on it. Like FakeSteve I think said on the first page, SCVs mainly what you want to destroy. If you got his expansion to lift, I'm sure you took out a nice chunk of SCVs, if not all, at the expansion. Originally my point was its not logical to waste scourges on a command center unless A. the Terran is heavily relying on that expansion and you must take it out at that specific moment or the Terran will come, clear the expansion of your units, and re establish the expansion or B. you are far ahead enough where a few scourges/larva can be wasted without consequence. | ||
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AzureEye
United States1360 Posts
On January 30 2009 12:09 Amber[LighT] wrote: If you infested a CC chances are you're doing much better than your opponent. I don't think I can agree with this. I think people are assuming that infestation takes too much time, and T army will wipe out your forces at his expo before you start your infestation. You can infest a CC without taking too much time to do it. People here are saying that you need to wait for the 6 scourges to produce, but I'd have to disagree. Scourges are used by Z players to patrol to pick off dropships, and a few more scourges lying around here and there is very common, especially if the Vessels are well-protected with marines and Z is saving them for an opening chance to strike at those vessels. I can understand that infestation symbolizes humiliation in pro games but it is also cost effective, because when Z strikes T expo, they can just re-land the CC and return the SCVs. CC might cost 400 minerals but the time spent to build a new CC equals loss of heavy mining AND gas time. On January 30 2009 13:28 Star.Dj wrote: 2. & 3. If the Terran isn't able to retaliate or defend the expansion, why even bother scourging? The command center was lifted, if it was harmed significantly enough - sure, infest it if you have a queen. If it wasn't damaged that doesn't mean you need to go and waste scourges to completely eliminate an already disabled expansion. If it takes just a single scourge or two and you feel like you can spare them, fine use scourges on it. Like FakeSteve I think said on the first page, SCVs mainly what you want to destroy. If you got his expansion to lift, I'm sure you took out a nice chunk of SCVs, if not all, at the expansion. Originally my point was its not logical to waste scourges on a command center unless A. the Terran is heavily relying on that expansion and you must take it out at that specific moment or the Terran will come, clear the expansion of your units, and re establish the expansion or B. you are far ahead enough where a few scourges/larva can be wasted without consequence. Look at these two scenarios: Scenario A: Zerg attacks T expo with army, T moves all his SCVs to his main, which lings have a hard time picking off because lings are not ranged fighting SCVs as marines are to moving drones. T lifts expo because he doesn't want it destroyed and moves it into his base. Zerg army is either: eliminated or pulled back because T did a counter attack elsewhere, and Z needs the rest of his army to defend it. T puts CC back and his SCVs back to work and his expo is fully up and running again. Scenario B: Zerg attacks T expo with army, T moves all his SCVs to his main, etc. T lifts expo, but scourges come to wear down the life, and a queen quickly shows up to infest it. T loses CC, he loses mining time and gas time because he has to rebuild a completely new CC in its place. T spends 400 minerals in doing so. Z loses price of 6 scourges (225 gas, 75 minerals) and T has 1 expo less for 1.5 minutes. Fully operational T expo filled with SCVs can acquire more resources than what Z has spent in 1.5 minutes, not to mention the price of the CC | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On January 30 2009 11:28 Dgtl wrote: That would cost alot of money for one thing and it is really easy to pick off single overlords because in ZvT Finish your sentence so we can tell you why it's not impossible. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28670 Posts
thats 900/400 in one easily killed 200 hp unit (actually overlord with 8 infesteds is the most expensive unit/drop combination in the game!  ) | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
just use the gas+min you could have used on queen+scourge and tech up to freakin hive for chrissake. 3/3 ultraling + swarm will rape anything T can or will send at you | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 22:53 -orb- wrote: Well thanks for the talking down to me, that's always fun. Read more carefully, I said, you are assuming those 6 scourge will do anything valuable, as in, actually hit the science vessels, not just fly in and get shreaded like a good % of scourge do. And who the fuck keep hydras in there army in zvt? Unless you have 10ish hydras they dont do shit to vessels before they just fly away.Are you serious? 6 scourge wouldn't have anything to do in late game zvt? Are you a D- player? If you don't keep hydras with your army and you don't have scourge, vessels are going to rape the shit out of your lurkers, ultras, and defilers. ... sometimes scourge get shredded by mnm; this is due to bad scourge micro. You shouldn't be sending your scourge to their deaths when your opponents vessels are well guarded and his marines are preoccupied by your attack. Not to mention the fact that even if half of them are going to get shredded, that means half of them went off to kill vessels, where by the queen method none of them would have been killing vessels. As we saw in the chill tl attack ep, infested terrans don't really have enough health to be very useful because they'll just die to mnm before getting into range. It's just 6 scourge, you are acting like I'm suggesting sending your entire army of scourge to kill the CC, its not hard to replace 6 scourge. And tell that to the pro's who still losing tons of scourge while trying to kill vessels in zvt. There's so much to do in late game zvt you cant make sure ur scourge hit 100% of the time, thats just a stupid thing to say. | ||
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sixghost
United States2096 Posts
On January 29 2009 18:25 wurm wrote: If you're so intent on infesting his CC, just focus fire a bit with lings until he lifts, then plague the damn thing. You think sending 6scourge and a queen into a CC is not possible, but you suggest sneaking a defiler queen and lings into a terran expo and plaguing it? Plague would take so long to do enough damage, you dont think the terran will come kill your queen or repair the CC int he 30 seconds this would take to get the hp low enough? | ||
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