EPTTerran (Goliaths or Wraiths) vs Protoss (Carriers)
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LonelyIslands
Canada590 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
That said though if you catch them off guard then wraiths are a great way to take out the carriers in one fell swoop. | ||
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LonelyIslands
Canada590 Posts
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FoBuLouS
United States570 Posts
The idea being that you pick off observers so that wraiths with cloak can scare the carriers back to cannons or until a new observer. Of course goliath's do more damage though. And don't forget to EMP :D | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
thus +3 attack wraith vs +3 armour carrier deals 19 damage | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13032 Posts
Both are really good counters to carriers. Goliaths are more used but wraiths can be devastating to a carrier army if he didnt see it coming so i guess its little bit risky to go wraiths but if he dont suspect you going wraiths he will lose all carriers with like 8-10 wraiths after you snipe his observers . You have one more option to go heavy tank vult army with support of marines and medics. They kill all the interceptors and carriers are useless (this is more of a humiliation tactic but have seen it in serious games too) PS I need to buy few donkeys for my wheel cuz my connection is horible theese days the old ones are too slow and old :p | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
secretly building 12 wraiths cause you scanned him starting fleet beacon can win you the game though, because he might only have 1 obs with his carriers if he doesnt know you have wraiths, and 12 of them can kill a small fleet of carriers reasonably quickly. so this can work. however, going wraiths as a counter to carriers with protoss knowing you are building them completely fails, because theyre incredibly easy for protoss to counter if they know about them. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
Goliath 125 hp, wraith 120, damage is close too, but goliath are cheeper and more easily massed. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Goliaths are just much more feasible for the most part as you can just pump out of existing factories, and they and share the same upgrades as tanks. Also, a lot less strain on your gas consumption. 1 wraith = 2 goliaths in terms of gas use. | ||
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SkepTicAL
Canada872 Posts
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poor newb
United States1879 Posts
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
On November 28 2008 03:39 SkelA wrote: PS I need to buy few donkeys for my wheel cuz my connection is horible theese days the old ones are too slow and old :p haha On November 28 2008 04:06 poor newb wrote: boxer medic blind gogo lol that was amazing. The vulnerability of wraiths to sairs and dragoons is also a serious issue that doesn't come up with goliaths. (well goons tend to tame them but not as badly) | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
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Dead
71 Posts
GG yo!  | ||
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klizzer
517 Posts
Goliaths are usually better, but on carrier-friendly maps, pathing through ramps and cliffs makes fighting carriers really painful... Goliaths + lockdown ftw???? [j/k] | ||
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il0seonpurpose
Korea (South)5638 Posts
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Final_Judicator
Germany85 Posts
On November 28 2008 04:19 Juicyfruit wrote: How about a combination of wraiths and a couple of valks? You definately do NOT want to use valks who do 6 damage per missile against carriers with 4 base armor. Pretty self-explanatory. On a more topic-related note: Assuming full upgrades on both sides, Goliaths do 18 damage, while wratihs do 19 (wraith's rockets count as ONE missile for calculations, 100% sure), so the damage basically evens out. The HP/armor difference is rather small, too. Wraiths have the advantage of being able to follow the carriers over cliffs and the like, preventing the Terran from being out-microed by the carriers. The downsides are the doubled gas cost and the fact that wraiths will be literally wiped out by ~8+ corsairs which are quickly and easily built. As a few posters already pointed out, the real use for wraiths lies in the surprise effect: scan, shoot down the Protoss' observers, eradicate the carriers and (hopefully) win the game. Never build more than 12 wraiths or even the dumbest Toss players will hard-counter you with corsairs. In a nutshell, Wraiths are the tactical alternative to Goliaths but not a long-term solution against carriers. Remember that in a TvP, you will have the Vehicle upgrades anyway, while there is no other reason to research the ship upgrades - the damage calculation doesn't take this fact into consideration. If you want other strategical alternatives, try either mass M&M (seriously, upgraded marines shoot down interceptors like nobody's business - but then you would have to deal with reavers and psi storms...) or ghosts with lockdown. BCs are, apart from the fact that they are easily countered by storms or even dark archons, just too underpowered to do the trick. Regards, Judicator | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On November 28 2008 04:46 Final_Judicator wrote: You definately do NOT want to use valks who do 6 damage per missile against carriers with 4 base armor. Pretty self-explanatory. Wasn't talking about hitting the carriers. I was talking about hitting the interceptors and the observers without having to scan + targetting them admist a flee of carriers. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On November 28 2008 05:08 Juicyfruit wrote: Wasn't talking about hitting the carriers. I was talking about hitting the interceptors and the observers without having to scan + targetting them admist a flee of carriers. If I'm not mistaken the missiles from the valkyrie will actually bug and do 0 damage if an interceptor returns to the carrier. | ||
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R3condite
Korea (South)1541 Posts
On November 28 2008 05:08 Juicyfruit wrote: Wasn't talking about hitting the carriers. I was talking about hitting the interceptors and the observers without having to scan + targetting them admist a flee of carriers. I believe that interceptors get upgraded as well? so it'd bea base 3 armor which means each orcket does 3 dmg... pretty weak also valk's cool down is too ridiculous the only reason it works against zerg is cus they r much weaker compared to toss | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
marines work for killing interceptors but are so easy to kill, and also have the problem that you then need to upgrade two seperate techs. I remember on nostalgia going wraith instead of goliath was a serious alternative, possibly even better. there I would go like 5 fact tank/vulture and 3 stargate wraith, 1 armory for each, then you could basically just split the map in half with huge tank line / mines/ turrets/ tanks dropshipped to ledges, (actually with you controlling 7 exps and him only controlling 5) wait for toss to bust out the inevitable carriers or arbiters that he always busts out and come with huge amounts of wraiths. pretty damn hard to counter and I dont think I lost any tvp on nostalgia where I wasnt way behind after early game, although if someone knew it was coming they could just build like 8 sairs with first 8 carriers instead of building 8, then encountering wraiths and getting destroyed and then building sairs.  I dont think ive really seen that be viable on any other land map but im a little out of the loop mapwise. =p | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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naventus
United States1337 Posts
Just wondering. Since BC with their high armor + yamato seem to have been originally conceived to counter Carriers. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
say, you have 12 bcs vs 12 carriers, 12 yamatos leave 6 carriers, you can actually just hold position with all bcs and kill every interceptor pretty quickly. if bcs try to chase carriers, they lose though. and without yamato there will be too many interceptors | ||
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onepost
Canada297 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + UpMagic was moderately successful, but he lost in the end. It's difficult to capitalize on your gains with wraiths, even if you succeed at killing the carriers. However, this game shows that it's playable, and that even an S-class progamer can be caught with his pants down, sending carriers without observers. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1803 Posts
Wraiths are like.. an element of surprise kinda thing. I think like what they said before, the amount of tech you have to go through to make them and all that resources just isn't as worth it because you already have a goliath tech ready. Unless you're pretty certain you can get up a cloaked wraith fleet and the P hardly has any observers. Or you could just be BoxeR for that game and do a blindspot | ||
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ShmotZ
United States581 Posts
edit: sigh, stupid patch ruined replay =(. And 3-3-3 as in air / ground seperate, idk thats just how i like to say it lol | ||
GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 28 2008 09:21 ShmotZ wrote: 3-3-3 wraiths are seriously nice @_@ heres a rep of a ffa me and some clan mates did where i made 3-3-3 wraiths, and really in the right situations, wraiths all the way upgraded are just imba lol + Show Spoiler + this is a joke of course no imba http://rapidshare.com/files/168074293/3-3-3_wraiths___.rep.html nothing special in the rep , just to show what 3-3-3 wraiths can do when you abuse them ^^ Yeah, if I could upgrade shields on my wraiths they'd be pretty overpowered too. | ||
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LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
starports cost a lot of gas/addon + wraiths...although wraith are anti-air, i think golis are more worth it. thats my noobish opinion =] | ||
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onepost
Canada297 Posts
On November 28 2008 11:19 LuckyFool wrote: Wraiths are more effective but if he knows you going wraiths to counter and has 8+ obs and some sairs you'll be in big trouble. Switch to pure Goliaths. He'll have wasted over 1000 minerals/gas and have 3-4 less carriers. The bluff might just work in your favor. frankly, you do not want your opponent to make sairs together with his carriers even if youre going goliath dweb is definitely a worthwhile investment, you often see protoss harassing terran with carriers and there being like a 2-dweb large area where goliaths can shoot from 12 carriers kill a lot of shit in the duration of 1 dweb | ||
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ZeKk
Sweden320 Posts
Going wraith is a little bit like do or die. It's risky but doable. Don't forget the fact that they can reach the carriers anywhere without being haressed as the goliaths would be, since they can go anywhere on the map. Maps with many obstacals as mountains, upper or down levels and lakes where goiaths cant move or see. I recommend in this scenoris and that if u r stocked up with alot of minerals and gas to go wraiths with thier every ability they can have. Other than that I would recommend you to always use goliaths as same reason as most ppl say here. | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
also you would need to upgrade wraiths to deal with his 3-3 cars and upgrading to 3-3 wraiths isn't really a surprise. long term wraiths vs long term cars = lose in most cases. | ||
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Dead
71 Posts
On November 28 2008 11:37 ZeKk wrote: Yes, Wraiths is almost exclusivy only good when ur enemy don't know about it. But never use em' without clocking, of course.Unless ur panic and he's force is real small. And always make ur wraiths where he won't find them that easily. Save up ur air force till ur rdy to attack due to he's number I'd say 2 wraiths on each carrier, correct me if im wrong. Also upg the 50 energy, ur gonna need it if ur wraiths surive if he dosent die from the first attack. Going wraith is a little bit like do or die. It's risky but doable. Don't forget the fact that they can reach the carriers anywhere without being haressed as the goliaths would be, since they can go anywhere on the map. Maps with many obstacals as mountains, upper or down levels and lakes where goiaths cant move or see. I recommend in this scenoris and that if u r stocked up with alot of minerals and gas to go wraiths with thier every ability they can have. Other than that I would recommend you to always use goliaths as same reason as most ppl say here. Example of map like ZeKk said is Katrina. Also this is interesting to get energy upgrade first - your still going to do bigger fleet before fighting... oO | ||
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shavingcream66
United States1219 Posts
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jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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village_idiot
2436 Posts
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._.
1133 Posts
I think in theory that would be the sickest shit ever, but since no one has tried that in the last 10 years of this game, I'm probably wrong on the matter. | ||
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Raithed
China7078 Posts
On November 28 2008 04:08 jello_biafra wrote: haha lol that was amazing. The vulnerability of wraiths to sairs and dragoons is also a serious issue that doesn't come up with goliaths. (well goons tend to tame them but not as badly) but goliaths are very vulnerable to storm. | ||
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
On November 28 2008 16:52 Raithed wrote: but goliaths are very vulnerable to storm. and wraiths are less vulnerable to storm? they stack overtop of eachother, only a limited amount of gols can fit in a storm's range. if you have 20 wraiths all in one area 1-2 storm(s) could take out most of those easily. so that just kind of cancels out and you are left with the fact that: sairs rape wraiths, and die to gols and goons rape wraiths, and only semi-rape gols gols benefit, they are cheaper, and you probably already have 6-8+ facts + upgrades initially before you go wraiths anyway | ||
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SilverSkyLark
Philippines8437 Posts
Simply because they have upgrades together with the tanks and vultures. Wraiths on the other hand, would cost their own upgrades while you would be only spending those upgrades on just one unit from a production facilities. Though sniping observers would be a totally different thing, the idea that you are sniping observers might give the protoss an inkling that you will go cloaked wraiths. | ||
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jhk82094
United States43 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28659 Posts
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freelander
Hungary4707 Posts
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Archaic
United States4024 Posts
Goliaths are much better as a long term unit because they are much harder to counter, compared to wraiths. Wraiths work much, much better versus carriers than goliaths though, because they have a much faster movement speed, better AI, and can follow the carriers over cliffs. Wraiths are mainly used for a surprise because if they are scouted, a few corsairs can own your wraiths like crazy. | ||
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
On November 29 2008 05:52 freelander wrote: both of them suck but terran has no other tool to use. Actually biomech is a decent response to carriers, but if the protoss sees you doing biomech they probably won't get carriers. MnM can really shred interceptors. Then you can mop up with goliaths. I believe there's a rep or VOD somewhere of Sea[shield] v.s Mistrzz that demonstrates that very well. | ||
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