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Hi, this is ChinaGreenTea. I'm relatively new to BW and want to keep playing it because I prefer this over SC2.
I'm making my first thread here on TL, but I've already been around for about a few months to read on Liquipedia. I hope I can find my answers here.
As a Terran player (ICCup rank between D- and D), my current goal is to learn possible counters or how to react against cheese openings.
So my last cheese encounters are as follows:
TvZ - 5 pool
Replay: http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39868
and
TvP - Proxy gates in my main
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=39867
When I played against protoss, I noticed the probe coming in my base but I ignored it because I wanted to focus on finishing my opening build. When I went to scout, I saw that protoss was setting up 2 gates in my main and tried to make a bunker close to my CC, though I had to place two because the first one wasn't positioned right.
This was the first time a cheese like this was used on me.
I didn't wall in because I want to become a good Terran user, maybe in future I might go wall again, but not until I can grasp the art of countering cheese.
As for Zerg's 5pool, I have never managed to survive an attack like that. What I just don't get it how to detect a 5pool if I scout zerg late.
I'm really at a loss when everyone around starts using cheese builds, I hope I can find the help I'm looking for here.
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4/5 pool - the way i was taught to counter these is to use scvs to delay lings. hopefully you've scouted it in advance - if you have, pull 6ish scvs to the ramp and just mineral float and spam stop on them over and over as the lings pass through. try not to lose any scvs. as soon as your rax is up, set up a bunker that can defend all your buildings (so you need to consciously build ur first group of buildings close to a spot where you can bunker) and make sure he doesnt surround ur rax to intercept the marine.
if you dont scout it, you are going to have to do something similar without the ramp - use scvs to stall till you can eke out a bunker and shove a marine in there asap.
as for proxy in base in tvp, its something you have to scout for. its very unusual for a toss to attempt it on python, as there is a low chance of finding someone on the first try, so you were unlucky in that sense. if you dont scout it till his zeal is actually out, ur kinda fucked, whether you bunker or not. but if you scout the gates warping in, stick 4-5 scvs on each gateway depending on how close to finished they are, and make sure you build all your consequent buildings in a way that the bunker reaches them and they also simcity your scvs/bunker. from there, if hes cannoning, you must get tank + siege asap.... if theres a single cannon that can reach ur shit, just attack with an unsieged tank with 3 scvs repairing it so the cannon dies but it doesnt. that should buy you time to get siege mode upon which you can blast his shit away. be sure to place ur tanks in a manner that scvs can block an attempt by a group of zealots to come in and gang it.
also be sure to note if you are having a supply depot picked off out of range of the bunker such that you cant save it.... you need to be building a new one before it dies so you dont get supply capped cuz u need all the units you can squeeze out.
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you have to get your mentality straight against 4/5 pool. Essentially, if you can fend off the attack, you win (assuming you end up with at least 4 SCVs). Don't be afraid to pull SCVs and trade them for lings.
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against protoss, building placement is important. Building a supply depot next to a barracks lets you dance your marine in between the 2 buildings while the zealot is unable to pass (the wall is small enough for a marine but not a zealot)
against zerg, when you scout an early pool, pull scvs to the ramp. Dont be afraid to pull extra (like 6) and block the ramp and make a marine to shoot them down while trying to repair (if you cant repair <not enough apm> then its okay too, just make marines)
rush a bunker in your mineral line if you cant block in time and then just try to fend off zerglings with scvs until bunker finishes. get 1 marine and then lift barracks and protect bunker. even if you lose supply depot, it doesnt matter and you probbably have a lot more scvs
edit: against zealots, having the little walkway for the marine to kill the zealot is very important and hasnt been mentioned =/
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Another thing that hasn't been mentioned is that if you scout in-base proxies you can beat them if you pull SCV's to kill the Gateways (not the pylon). 
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@ ReketSomething
I lost it when you mentioned to make 1 marine, then lift rax. What exactly should be the follow up after I stop pumping marines?
@ OMin
By saying spam stop, do you mean to spam the 'S' button? And mineral floating is like making workers fly through units right?
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He said lift your barracks so the lings don't dry hump errr destroy your barracks while your marine stays idle in the bunker. That's if your barracks is far away from your command center/bunker if your bunker is in range of the barracks then you can probably kill some lings as it attacks your barracks, but other wise just float the barracks and try to take care of the lings that are harassing your main and eventually you will drop the barracks again to continue pumping marines.
It's useless to pump marines from a barracks if you have a dozen lings attacking away at the barracks. The marines will just get picked off one by one.
Spamming stop is "S". Also yes mineral floating is when you click on the minerals in your natural to float through units. So yeah you got it right. You just have to make sure your unit you are passing through is actually on the ramp... if not your SCV will just wander around your main like a retard until you put the unit guarding the main further down the ramp.
Let us know if you got any more questions. Good luck... Terran is a pretty difficult race at D- / D level if you ask me.
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Thanks everyone for being so kind and explaining stuff to a rather late newbie, and sorry for not understanding the first time :p.
Since I have more information now, I can move on, and will probably post some replays as results in this thread if that'll be allowed later on.
Thanks again everyone.
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thanks for the replay, next time try scouting sooner and block off your main entrance with a supply dept and barracks
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vs zerg: i scout after supply and if i don't find him first try (4 player map) i sometimes send out a second scv. if he goes 4-5 pool make bunker with your cc and a marine asap. then float barracks there, if its not already in position. and from here the game is easy win.
vs protoss: on every 1on1 map i scout my main for proxy's before scouting towards his base. i scout after rax in tvp. this will give you enough time to kill his gates in your base with scv's. i'm not sure about the number of scv's you should attack with.. i think 7-8 i adequate.
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United States10151 Posts
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something.
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On January 17 2011 11:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something.
In base proxies are relatively common and extraordinarily powerful on Destination and Heartbreak Ridge. If Terran walls in and doesn't see it in time, it's basically an automatic loss
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On January 17 2011 11:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something.
No sane Z will ever move into your mineral line. If he does the SCV drill is brilliant but don't expect it to happen.
Your vs proxy gate advice is garbage. Bisu has succesfully proxy-gated quite a few times in broadcasted games so your 'how do you not see that' comment is stupid at best. Pulling all but 3-4 SCVs is overkill and P will regain most if not all of his economy if you do that: he still has at the very least 8 probes mining.
I'm not too sure about attacking the pylon either: he can just warp in a new one. Go for the gateway IMHO, but not with more SCVs than what is needed. Alternatively you just put a bunker by your mineral line and let that do the work, saving your econ.
And that spamming rightclick stuff is bullshit - it looks faster but isn't. Save your APM to maintain SCV production and rally rines.
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On January 17 2011 16:46 Hans-Titan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 11:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something. No sane Z will ever move into your mineral line. If he does the SCV drill is brilliant but don't expect it to happen. Your vs proxy gate advice is garbage. Bisu has succesfully proxy-gated quite a few times in broadcasted games so your 'how do you not see that' comment is stupid at best. Pulling all but 3-4 SCVs is overkill and P will regain most if not all of his economy if you do that: he still has at the very least 8 probes mining. I'm not too sure about attacking the pylon either: he can just warp in a new one. Go for the gateway IMHO, but not with more SCVs than what is needed. Alternatively you just put a bunker by your mineral line and let that do the work, saving your econ. And that spamming rightclick stuff is bullshit - it looks faster but isn't. Save your APM to maintain SCV production and rally rines.
Agreed.
In fact there's one famous game where Bisu manner pylons the min line then builds 2 gateways behind it, making new manner pylons when the probes attack the old ones. (granted it was PvP and not PvT but whatever)
The game is a ROFLstomp.
In-base 2gate is a viable cheese even if the opponent knows it's coming since zealots are just so extraordinarily powerful.
In fact your "lololol how did you not see it lol" comment leads me to believe that you have never played iCCup, ever. Lots of players will use this cheese--hell even terran players do it with raxes sometimes
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Another thing to note about in base cheeses. I think it's actually better to not scout it too early than otherwise (but still preferably not too late.) The idea is that if you scout it TOO early (while pylon is warping), they won't even lay down gates. If you scout it after the gates go down, or even at a timing when the gates are almost done, he probably WILL commit. Remember, proxy buildings are all-in, but if you scout at this sort of timing and defend it as late as possible, you don't give him the option of backing out. You just have to kill the gates before zealots start popping out and killing your shit. (this is the timing you should see it if you scout after depot-->rax? I'm bad and I have only played against a few proxies, so i'm not entirely sure. :<
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On January 17 2011 16:57 xxpack09 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 16:46 Hans-Titan wrote:On January 17 2011 11:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something. No sane Z will ever move into your mineral line. If he does the SCV drill is brilliant but don't expect it to happen. Your vs proxy gate advice is garbage. Bisu has succesfully proxy-gated quite a few times in broadcasted games so your 'how do you not see that' comment is stupid at best. Pulling all but 3-4 SCVs is overkill and P will regain most if not all of his economy if you do that: he still has at the very least 8 probes mining. I'm not too sure about attacking the pylon either: he can just warp in a new one. Go for the gateway IMHO, but not with more SCVs than what is needed. Alternatively you just put a bunker by your mineral line and let that do the work, saving your econ. And that spamming rightclick stuff is bullshit - it looks faster but isn't. Save your APM to maintain SCV production and rally rines. Agreed. In fact there's one famous game where Bisu manner pylons the min line then builds 2 gateways behind it, making new manner pylons when the probes attack the old ones. (granted it was PvP and not PvT but whatever) The game is a ROFLstomp. In-base 2gate is a viable cheese even if the opponent knows it's coming since zealots are just so extraordinarily powerful. In fact your "lololol how did you not see it lol" comment leads me to believe that you have never played iCCup, ever. Lots of players will use this cheese--hell even terran players do it with raxes sometimes
Twas the last game Pokju ever played.
Search "a tribute to losers" on youtube, you'll find that game.
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In TVZ I like to scout early. -- 9 supply being the absolute latest. 1 scv scouts 2 locations. If zerg is not at either of those locations, I always send out another scv from my base to scout that location, while sending the other one back to my base. That way, you will always scout the 4 pool or lings running towards your base in time. Obviously you can then judge whether you will have to use scvs to delay the lings and how many. Make a bunker, keep making rines and twiddling your thumbs until they leave.
In TVP, if you scout it, just send 8 scvs to attack a gateway. You should at least kill off 1 gateway. If you're continuing to make rines and have a bunker, you should be able to overpower him (use scvs in attack if you need to).
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On January 17 2011 16:46 Hans-Titan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2011 11:48 FlaShFTW wrote:
vs 5 pool/4 pool: MICRO!!! Do the mineral glitch where you group them all at one mineral patch and when the lings come, attack. If you scout this out, try delaying with like 5 scv at the ramp/choke and get a bunker ASAP. oh, and with a marine.
vs proxy gate in main: SERIOUSLY??? how do you not see that. scout after rax. and seriously, what map were you playing on??? katrina??? medusa??? proxy IN BASE??? ok now, that you need to learn to deal with yourself. keep like 3-4 scvs mining and attack the pylon with everything else. to make the scv attack faster, continuously spam right click on what you want to attack, it increases by like 10% or something. No sane Z will ever move into your mineral line. If he does the SCV drill is brilliant but don't expect it to happen. Your vs proxy gate advice is garbage. Bisu has succesfully proxy-gated quite a few times in broadcasted games so your 'how do you not see that' comment is stupid at best. Pulling all but 3-4 SCVs is overkill and P will regain most if not all of his economy if you do that: he still has at the very least 8 probes mining. I'm not too sure about attacking the pylon either: he can just warp in a new one. Go for the gateway IMHO, but not with more SCVs than what is needed. Alternatively you just put a bunker by your mineral line and let that do the work, saving your econ. And that spamming rightclick stuff is bullshit - it looks faster but isn't. Save your APM to maintain SCV production and rally rines.
Yeah, that proxy advice is totally bad. Attack the gates, not the pylon.
A lone pylon costs 100 to build, and it builds relatively fast. Gates cost 150 and more time. If you let the gates finish, and send like 6 scvs, you can usually kill the gates before zealots come out. This will put you ahead in tech, and eliminate all possible threats by the toss for the next few minutes. Killing the pylon later will also net you another 100 minerals and a possibly supply block. Then, you can just expand and early push for a win. =/ If you don't scout it though, you just need to micro. I remember a famous TSL2 game between GosiTerran vs Jianfei where JF goes for double proxy gates in base vs Gositerran's wall off, and somehow gositerran holds! It was quite miraculous. I suggest watching that. Lemme link it:
+ Show Spoiler +
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Since I 4/5 pool a lot with zerg. I know what it feels like to fail.
1. Scout zerg base. If you don't scout in time... build bunker ASAP near your CC.
2. don't wall off right away, put 1st depot near your CC
3. When zerglings come in, push marine into bunker and repair if needed.
4. If my zerglings try for a second push, they see a terran wall being build and gets fuck by marines.
5. I get M&M pushed and GG
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On January 18 2011 13:09 Lightningbullet wrote:
Since I 4/5 pool a lot with zerg. I know what it feels like to fail.
1. Scout zerg base. If you don't scout in time... build bunker ASAP near your CC.
2. don't wall off right away, put 1st depot near your CC
3. When zerglings come in, push marine into bunker and repair if needed.
4. If my zerglings try for a second push, they see a terran wall being build and gets fuck by marines.
5. I get M&M pushed and GG
I wouldn't repair the bunker, instead i would attack the zerglings. IF they attack back, run around the bunker.
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About proxy gate in main:
If you start attacking the gateway with 3 scvs just as the protoss puts it down you will kill it before the zealot pops out. Realistically you won't have the scvs by the gateway to attack it just as the protoss puts it down. So what can you do?
If you start attack the gateway before it's on 200/500 HP you will still kill it with only 3 scvs. If it's past 200/500 hp you will need 4 scvs to kill it before the zealot finishes.
If the gateway finishes just as you start attack it you will need 7 scvs to kill it before the zealot is out. However if you spamclick attack on the gateway you will only need 6 scvs.
So, to summarize, if you scout two gateways building in your main, take 8 scvs and send 4 to attack each gateway. When they start attack the gateways, select the gateways and check if they are past 200/500 HP. If not, send back 2 scvs to mine again and keep 3 scvs to attack each gateway. If the gateway is at 350/500 HP you will need 4 scvs to kill it in time and if it's at 420 HP (say 400 just to be safe) you will need 5 scvs.
Just keep track of their HP and you will be golden 
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Interesting. I've never know the exact numbers, so I've always just thrown out some random amount of SCVs. 
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I never knew that spamming attack would increase the attack rate. Interesting stuff all around. I do prefer 8 scvs on one gateway, though. With a player who is good at probe harassment, it could be very easy to end up with only 3 scvs attacking each gateway for some duration. I don't feel comfortable with the prospect of not killing at least 1 gateway. Conversely, with 8, one is always dead and the other one is only a few marine shots from being gone, at worse.
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EPT
