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On September 04 2020 10:49 QOGQOG wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote: Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8 ASL 1st place KSL 3rd place ASL RO8 KSL 3rd place ASL 4th place KSL 1st place ASL 3rd place KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains Wow, I forgot how obnoxious Rain fans are.
Wow, great counterargument
I am defending him because Dr. BisuDagger is being extremely sarcastic when it comes to how Rain can "only win PvP"
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On September 04 2020 10:52 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 10:49 QOGQOG wrote:On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote: Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8 ASL 1st place KSL 3rd place ASL RO8 KSL 3rd place ASL 4th place KSL 1st place ASL 3rd place KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains Wow, I forgot how obnoxious Rain fans are. Wow, great counterargument I am defending him because Dr. BisuDagger is being extremely sarcastic when it comes to how Rain can "only win PvP" He wasn't exactly bashing him, given he started the post with "Rain has been great." That's an actual quote as opposed to "Rain can only win PvP," which no one said. Given, however, that Rain won ASL5 thanks to Snow eliminating Flash (followed by winning a PvP against Snow in the finals) and KSL3 through a PvP Ro4 and Finals, attributing a lot of his success to PvP prowess is... completely fair and justifiable. And even if you think "great" was somehow unfairly underrating Rain, responding to that with "fuck off" and insulting Snow for some reason is totally uncalled for.
RE: Stork He is good, and creative. But it's really hard for me to see him winning against the top four from last season.
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience?
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On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote: Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8 ASL 1st place KSL 3rd place ASL RO8 KSL 3rd place ASL 4th place KSL 1st place ASL 3rd place KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
I dont know how you can downplay players like Snow or Bisu when compared to Rain. Rain was talented but extremely lazy (shown in his online body of work, just ask letmelose). Asl 5 had Third world, protoss map unlike other and Hero played subpar against Rain. Asl 6 stomped by Effort KSL 1 lost 0-4 to JD and lost online 3rd place match to Soulkey. Asl 6 lost to Effort despite the maps. KSL 2 Lost to Sharp lol. And lost to Last in online 3rd place match. KSL 3 was protoss fest again (some players even switched races during it). Asl7 Lost to Last and Effort in humilating was and asl 8 Flashed out. KSL 4 I agree, impressive win over Zero and quite badly besten By Light who was hitting his stride. Bisu then has always reached ro8, and won a league, has multiple silvers and 3rd place finishes plus online victories. Rain rarely made to top 10 in sponrankings, he usually had something like 45% winrate when players like Bisu, Snow and Best are constantly in top 10.
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
On September 04 2020 09:30 ShowTheLights wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2020 04:26 BisuDagger wrote:On September 02 2020 13:54 QOGQOG wrote:On September 02 2020 07:08 Mettis wrote: Did Rain retire btw? I haven't been following broodwar long but I heard he was a beast. Who's the Protoss hope? Snow. Though Mini and Bisu could potentially regain some past glory this tournament. Rain has been great. He won from a combination of insane PvP, bracket luck, and protoss favored maps (hence the insane PvP being significant). You could say that Snow has had nearly the same exact success except he couldn't overcome Rain. So, hands down Snow has to be the best Protoss in this ASL. Fuck off Go look at both of Rain's championship brackets Also, even in the tournaments that he didn't get 1st place in, go look at his matchups and the games he won In all the premiere tournaments, he never placed below Top 8 ASL RO8 ASL 1st place KSL 3rd place ASL RO8 KSL 3rd place ASL 4th place KSL 1st place ASL 3rd place KSL 2nd place
I dont know how you can downplay someone's success on their opponents, you beat who is put in front of you, and the way Rain was INCREDIBLY dominant in the matchup despite it being the 2nd most volatile rock paper scissors matchup in the game under ZvZ was amazing to watch Now go look at Snow's results and Im laughing as I write this with how worse his results and play were compared to Rains
You don't need to throw insults to have a good discussion. Take a second to pause before you post angrily next time please. And I have a right to my opinion, which happens to include the fact that Rain probably could have been considered the top 1 or 2 protoss of all time had he been able to start his Kespa run a few years earlier. He certainly has the innate talent.
Let's take a walk in the past and analyze Bisu's past.
Bisu was the best PvP during his tournament wins : Rain was the best PvP during his tournament wins
Bisu had bracket luck by consistently getting PvP matches : Rain had bracket luck by consistently getting PvP matches
Had Stork defeated Bisu in tournament matchups he'd be easily considered the GOAT : Had Snow defeated Rain in tournament matchups he'd be considered the best Protoss of the ASL era
Golds: MSL1: defeats Savior well earned since then MSL2: Defeats Stork MSL3: Defeats BachHo, Defeats Much, Defeats Free, Defeats Jangbi GOMTV Classic S2: Defeats Jangbi WCG 2009: Defeats Free, Defeats Stork
Bisu being the greatest PvPer of all time and the bracket luck delivering him Protoss after Protoss is a huge reason for his individual tournament success. If Stork beats Bisu in both finals he's the GOAT, if Jangbi beats Bisu both times he becomes the GOAT. That DOES not take away how good Bisu was during that time period, it just greatly shifts the focus on who was the best during a given time period.
It is in this same perspective that I look at Rain and Snow. Snow during the same time period was the best PvTer, was the only Protoss in nearly a decade to defeat Flash in a boX series (yes you can argue map pool), and posted similar results to Rain. Had he defeated Rain both times he would easily be considered the better protoss of that era.
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an out of shape rain smacking down zero 4-1 in ksl 4 is legendary in my mind. sure, you can blame zero's nerves and say he didn't quite have it together at that point. but i don't remember being as captivated by a pvz series overall since then (from a protoss perspective. there has been plenty of series since then where zerg slaughtered their p opponent.) i think tasteless once described pvz as an intense back and forth boxing match, where the winner narrowly bludgeons his opponent into submission. that series was like rain coming out in a ufc match and just kicking zero on the chin. rain's army movement was like poetry in that series. for example how in game 1 he escorts his high templar across the map with his zealots, casts a few sick storms then immediately morphs two into an archon. lesser players miss those details.
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On September 04 2020 14:53 konadora wrote:a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience?
Nope, in fact in the Greater Seoul area we recently moved up to the '2.5' lockdown level due to new cluster infections. This means a lot of stuff is either closed or has stronger restrictions (for example all coffee shops are now takeout-only). So live audiences are not going to happen any time soon
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Bisutopia18980 Posts
On September 05 2020 08:48 ShloobeR wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 14:53 konadora wrote:a bit off topic but I'm heading to Korea in two weeks for work and I'll be free on weekends. Is there still no live audience? Nope, in fact in the Greater Seoul area we recently moved up to the '2.5' lockdown level due to new cluster infections. This means a lot of stuff is either closed or has stronger restrictions (for example all coffee shops are not takeout-only). So live audiences are not going to happen any time soon That being said you are well known enough that you should be invited to the studio. If you need me to talk to afreeca staff for you please send a PM.
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Can someone upload the mappack to a better place? I get an error on that official link.
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ro24 group A starts in 15 hours. Let's go Shine! Show some cool bag of builds strats.
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On September 04 2020 10:41 Kuks wrote: Thing are getting heated. oof I don't see the point in arguing about Rain, he will not playing this season.
But Stork! No doubt he will be seeded into season 11. I realize he has had a rough go of ASL. When the tournaments first started he was struggling to get out of the round of 24 consistently. Each season he has worked hard and its showing in his improved performance. Last season he did the best of all the Protoss players!
Stork may not be the most mechanical player, but he is one of the most clever. He seems to figure out new and strange maps quick and begin defining the meta on them. This season certainly is outside the box, wtf is Plasma? None of the mainstream maps like Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breakers, or Neo Sylphid are in here, which should favor Stork. Best said it best, "Its like everything he (Stork) says is gospel".
Snow is exceptional, no doubt there! His one base win vs Soulkey's 3 hatch hydra was the most well played game of ASL so far. I would expect Snow to place right behind Stork.
What an exciting season this will be!
I just wanted to know if he was retired or not and then it turned into a shitshow.
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On September 06 2020 23:52 Mettis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2020 10:41 Kuks wrote: Thing are getting heated. oof I don't see the point in arguing about Rain, he will not playing this season.
But Stork! No doubt he will be seeded into season 11. I realize he has had a rough go of ASL. When the tournaments first started he was struggling to get out of the round of 24 consistently. Each season he has worked hard and its showing in his improved performance. Last season he did the best of all the Protoss players!
Stork may not be the most mechanical player, but he is one of the most clever. He seems to figure out new and strange maps quick and begin defining the meta on them. This season certainly is outside the box, wtf is Plasma? None of the mainstream maps like Fighting Spirit, Circuit Breakers, or Neo Sylphid are in here, which should favor Stork. Best said it best, "Its like everything he (Stork) says is gospel".
Snow is exceptional, no doubt there! His one base win vs Soulkey's 3 hatch hydra was the most well played game of ASL so far. I would expect Snow to place right behind Stork.
What an exciting season this will be!
I just wanted to know if he was retired or not and then it turned into a shitshow.
Fear not, not a shitshow, just one angry poster that can't accept that Rain's biggest strenght was PvP, even if that is not exactly saying anything bad about him. All good
But rain is out of the loop for a long time, you will not get much lucking finding him in bw relevant matches these days.
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On September 04 2020 09:04 Avi-Love wrote: Stork has a significant losing record against pretty much everyone in the entire ASL, the only upside is that he might beat Rush in a bo1 and then have a shot at getting out 2nd in his group -- but Rush and Larva are both a lot better than him.
Best pretty much always chokes when it matters, regardless of how well he does in minor events and in spon games, so best to just assume the worst.
Mini used to be respectable, but 4-5 months ago it seems like he fell off a cliff, he's very shaky and the quality of his play varies wildly, way too inconsistent to make it deep.
Bisu/Snow are the only real chance P has of doing anything in this ASL, in my opinion. Although I still maintain that IF Flash plays T, he's a lock for the win -- otherwise LighT is. They are both just a step above the competition, and with almost all of the maps being good for T in both matchups, this ASL almost feels predetermined.
I agree with your sentiments on Snow, Mini and Best. Not on Bisu & Stork. + Show Spoiler +but if you are right then after Group A there's not much chance for toss this season either
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On August 29 2020 22:41 BLinD-RawR wrote: if he actually commits to playing random this ASL I will change it.
but know this, flash is known to troll. I saw it has been changed on liquipedia, after apearing officially on Ro24 group A.
Pretty excited to see what Flash can achieve playing Random.
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The link to the map pack is dead…
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Does someone know the dates of the next rounds?
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United Kingdom12009 Posts
On October 15 2020 20:28 neustadt wrote: Does someone know the dates of the next rounds?
Sunday, Tuesday, Sunday, Tuesday AFAIK
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