On August 12 2020 22:55 TaLIfy wrote: I don’t find your rationalizations convincing. If anything, they only highlight how silly the plot is.
How though? If you’re going to make a thread in this vein then surely a bit of actual back and forth on points and counter points is worth pursuing otherwise it’s just people making assertions as to their tastes.
Why wouldn’t the Confederacy nuke Korhal for example? It’s space man. Parallels to how nations on Earth would do things don’t necessarily apply when we’re talking about a bunch of ex cons zapped across space and operating on a limited time frame of development. So the one nascent unifying power nuking the first group to wholesale oppose them as a warning shot is ok with me.
If the worldbuilding was set that Koprulu had been colonised for thousands of years then yes, things would be more complex and there would be competing centres of power and the Confederacy being cartoonishly ruthless wouldn’t really fit.
The one actual weak point I think in the story (which I rate as functionally solid, not a masterwork) is the stuff with the UED which is rather muddled. The problem there is that it’s stated that they have been observing Koprulu from afar and are familiar with events. So they make a bunch of completely inexplicable errors with their approach to the alien races.
If they were a bunch of ignorant, arrogant upstarts arriving in the sector, or were competent with a decent plan based on their prior observations I’m kinda down with either direction for a new human faction. Just from my recollections the two kind of got muddled and didn’t make a huge amount of sense.
If you have played SC2, as per your points on Zerg and me largely agreeing, I think why Abathur is such a beloved character is because he/it actually talks and behaves in a way that one feels the Zerg should
I haven't play through the campaign since I was probably in my teens so definitely would look at the story with a bit of nostalgia, thinking back on it I'm not sure how great a story it is and I would like to play it again. I first played the precursor missions when I got them with a demo shortly before it was released when I was about 14 and loved that they led into the main Terran campaign. I think I would play through those first if I did play it again.
I think though that, in general, people don't regard the original campaign as great but moreso the Brood War campaign. I think in particular the ending of Zerg campaign really left people wanted to know more, there was the hidden mission when you see what Duran was up to and then Kerrigan's treachery and Raynor's swearing of revenge. I think a big issue with the SC2 campaign was it really didn't live up to a satisfying conclusion to any of that. Instead it turned Mengsk into a cartoon villain and Kerrigan and Raynor some clichéd former lovers. In the original campaign it's just implied Raynor liked Kerrigan, as far as I remember they were never actually together or anything.
I’m sorry. I’m wasting your time. I wish there was some game story that did cater to my tastes in military scifi.
The tiberium games are the only ones that come close, but they don’t really have all that much to work with.
Starcraft did have ideas I liked, like the zerg hive mind, protoss psychic gestalt, the terrans being greedy miners, political drama, etc. But I don’t like the execution.
I’m really frustrated that there isn’t anywhere that suits my tastes.
On August 13 2020 01:58 TaLIfy wrote: I’m sorry. I’m wasting your time. I wish there was some game story that did cater to my tastes in military scifi.
The tiberium games are the only ones that come close, but they don’t really have all that much to work with.
Starcraft did have ideas I liked, like the zerg hive mind, protoss psychic gestalt, the terrans being greedy miners, political drama, etc. But I don’t like the execution.
I’m really frustrated that there isn’t anywhere that suits my tastes.
I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of time, any chance to reminisce about SC’s story and complain about the bits I don’t like is fine by me!
I can empathise a lot on a lack of things catering to one’s tastes. Feel that myself with many a game these days
On August 13 2020 02:53 iFU.pauline wrote: The story is pretty solid for an RTS game, compare it to command and conquer or red alert from back in the day then BW is like an Hitchcock movie.
CnC is gloriously, gloriously campy though, which I do enjoy. A big part of its charm even if yes. It is ridiculous.
On August 12 2020 22:55 TaLIfy wrote:The one actual weak point I think in the story (which I rate as functionally solid, not a masterwork) is the stuff with the UED which is rather muddled. The problem there is that it’s stated that they have been observing Koprulu from afar and are familiar with events. So they make a bunch of completely inexplicable errors with their approach to the alien races.
If they were a bunch of ignorant, arrogant upstarts arriving in the sector, or were competent with a decent plan based on their prior observations I’m kinda down with either direction for a new human faction. Just from my recollections the two kind of got muddled and didn’t make a huge amount of sense.
The real problem with the UED is that allegedly they arrived from the millenia old civilization of earth, bringing with them all the same rag-tag tech, developed and used all over the Koprulu sector (even that requires several handwaves to explain in the lore from the manual, like different sections stealing from and spying on each other…) – plus Medics, Valkyries – and their own variation of the Goliath, as seen in two of the cinematics, with rocked pods on the shoulders and a Gatling gun between the legs, which however does not get its own in-game-model. Gameplay clearly took supremacy over lore – and just plain common sense – there.
On August 13 2020 02:53 iFU.pauline wrote: The story is pretty solid for an RTS game, compare it to command and conquer or red alert from back in the day then BW is like an Hitchcock movie.
BW's plot has more interpersonal drama, sure, but I can't say that the story is better than C&C because it has numerous problems of its own. It suffers from poor plotting, retcons, bizarre character behavior, plot contrivances, and tonal inconsistencies among other issues.
For example, the plot of Episode 1 wants to be a rebel romance or whatever the proper jargon would be.
The plot is basically this: Mengsk launches a coup against the Confederacy using a convenient plot device that kills them for him. In the process, he betrays two of his subordinates who swear revenge.
The problem is that this plot is at complete odds with the premise as originally setup. While this is happening, terran space is being invaded and devastated by two alien races. It doesn't make sense for the aliens to behave as convenient to the rebel's plot, because they have their own agency and goals that should act counter to that.
The politics and socio-economic behind all this aren't touched upon at all. It's a very simplistic case of an evil dictator overthrowing a faceless evil government. Like Che Guevara's Cuba in space.
Episode 1 could have worked fine as a self-contained story of a third world revolution in space, but I don't think it works as THE story of Starcraft. The scaling isn't believable to me. It squanders the potential of the premise in my opinion.
I think Blizzard should have stuck with their original idea (as mentioned on the website circa 1997 or so) of the Confederacy being an actual confederation of many different nations who exist in an uneasy peace that degenerates into civil strife during the alien invasions. Many different campaigns could been told using that backdrop.
On August 12 2020 22:55 TaLIfy wrote:The one actual weak point I think in the story (which I rate as functionally solid, not a masterwork) is the stuff with the UED which is rather muddled. The problem there is that it’s stated that they have been observing Koprulu from afar and are familiar with events. So they make a bunch of completely inexplicable errors with their approach to the alien races.
If they were a bunch of ignorant, arrogant upstarts arriving in the sector, or were competent with a decent plan based on their prior observations I’m kinda down with either direction for a new human faction. Just from my recollections the two kind of got muddled and didn’t make a huge amount of sense.
The real problem with the UED is that allegedly they arrived from the millenia old civilization of earth, bringing with them all the same rag-tag tech, developed and used all over the Koprulu sector (even that requires several handwaves to explain in the lore from the manual, like different sections stealing from and spying on each other…) – plus Medics, Valkyries – and their own variation of the Goliath, as seen in two of the cinematics, with rocked pods on the shoulders and a Gatling gun between the legs, which however does not get its own in-game-model. Gameplay clearly took supremacy over lore – and just plain common sense – there.
The problem with the UED, like a lot of other things, is that the Starcraft lore has always been annoyingly vague and subject to constant rewrites during development.
Originally Koprulu was in loose contact with Earth according to the website circa 1997, then this was changed in the SC1 manual so that Koprulu was isolated from Earth. Then the BW manual retconned this to the UED secretly spying on Koprulu for centuries. Then Heroes of the Storm apparently retconned that so that they were always in public contact.
In fact, according to the BW website circa 2000 or so, the UED wasn't originally going to appear at all. The terran plot would have been a conspiracy within the Dominion to overthrow Mengsk. Obviously this was rewritten, which may have created plot holes.
On August 13 2020 06:43 razorsuKe wrote: OP: Asks for critical analysis of story
TL: Gives critical analysis of OP
This is usually what happens when I try to ask questions like these. Yet I keep trying anyway. What is wrong with me?
On August 13 2020 01:58 TaLIfy wrote: I’m sorry. I’m wasting your time. I wish there was some game story that did cater to my tastes in military scifi.
The tiberium games are the only ones that come close, but they don’t really have all that much to work with.
Starcraft did have ideas I liked, like the zerg hive mind, protoss psychic gestalt, the terrans being greedy miners, political drama, etc. But I don’t like the execution.
I’m really frustrated that there isn’t anywhere that suits my tastes.
I wouldn’t say it’s a waste of time, any chance to reminisce about SC’s story and complain about the bits I don’t like is fine by me!
I can empathise a lot on a lack of things catering to one’s tastes. Feel that myself with many a game these days
I think that Blizzard took the wrong approach to writing Starcraft's story. Rather than treating Starcraft's premise as a military scifi sandbox for many different kinds of campaigns that would provide different perspectives and gimmicks, they decided to tell a heroic fantasy in space about the same tiny cast of recurring characters repeating saving and/or damning teh universe.
This makes the setting feel very tiny and generally unbelievable to me.
On August 13 2020 10:46 reincremate wrote: Might come as a shock, but maybe vidya games aren't the best medium for storytelling.
That argument is much bigger than this one thread.
I think OP is looking for a LOTR-esque detailed universe, but starcraft is not that nor did it ever try to be. You mention Game of Thrones and The Expanse.. both television series based on series of novels, of course they are going to be more intricate. The starcraft campaign is more like a standalone novel or movie with 3 acts and should be judged as such.
On August 15 2020 06:47 Gak2 wrote: I think OP is looking for a LOTR-esque detailed universe, but starcraft is not that nor did it ever try to be. You mention Game of Thrones and The Expanse.. both television series based on series of novels, of course they are going to be more intricate. The starcraft campaign is more like a standalone novel or movie with 3 acts and should be judged as such.
The first and second acts got their own novels. Liberty’s Crusade and Queen of Blades. When judged on their own merits, they still have a lot of problems.
As I said, the plot of Liberty’s Crusade doesn’t make sense because it tries to smash at least two different kinds of stories together. It wants to be Che Guevara’s revolution in space, but breaks down under the addition of an interstellar confederation and two simultaneous alien invasions.
The plot of Queen of Blades... ugh. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone.
I recently played SC2 LotV campaign. It's annoying. I wanted to slap it.
Every fucking map forces you to do some stupid checkpoints and shit, bonus missions, timed objectives, interrupting you, etc. Did I say it's annoying?
In BW in many maps you had the freedom to mostly go at your own pace, just defeat enemies, and wasn't bombarded with story elements and requirements every 30s.
In that sense, the BW campaign is much superior than the SC2 LotV campaign. I mean, if they wanted to interrupt and force my gameplay so much, they could have just made the campaign a set of in-game movies. I never got to play a real game in the whole campaign.
From what I know, the motives of all races and factions are thoroughly explained. Handwaving them away as "not making sense" seems like lazy argumentation in my eyes.
On August 16 2020 02:37 Magic Powers wrote: From what I know, the motives of all races and factions are thoroughly explained. Handwaving them away as "not making sense" seems like lazy argumentation in my eyes.
I didn’t say the motives didn’t make sense. I said the plot didn’t make sense because the motives don’t mesh with the setting or the events.
Mengsk is trying to be Che Guevara in space, but the setting (a massive interstellar confederation under invasion by two alien fleets) doesn’t believably mesh with that. The aliens should be hugely important given the invasion setting, but they’re reduced to a plot device and then leave once they‘re no longer convenient to the plot. The interstellar confederation with bazillions of inhabitants should realistically be far too big for any terrorist to take over just by killing one capital city.
The zerg invaded to consume humanity, like they do every species they encounter, yet they only capture one girl (because she has the highest midichlorian count in the universe, apparently) and then leave. Then they forget about her when they fight the war she was created to fight.
I don’t understand how any of this is difficult to understand. The story is not well constructed. It tries to smash too many wildly different concepts together. It doesn’t flow believably when you stop to actually think it through. It feels like the setting was written by one person and then the story was written by another.