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Blogs > Dromar
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Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-29 16:43:17
December 29 2008 16:22 GMT
#1
I've been playing a reasonable amount of ICCup lately, but I've been practicing even more. Last episode, I realized that I have no plan when I play, resulting in me sucking worse than I otherwise would. Unfortunately there aren't many BOs like this
+ Show Spoiler +
9 Depot
11 Barracks
14 Depot
begin marine production (stop at 6 marines)
19 Command Center
23 Depot
25 Refinery
28 Academy (stim + bat then med when done)
32 Barracks
35 Engineering Bay (+1 attack research when done)
36 Barracks
From here it gets more loose. Get range immediately when stim is done. Get comstats before your factory. Get your factory before 60 supply. Build turrets immediately upon your factory starting. Go straight to vessel and get 3 tanks on the way.

excerpt from this thread.


or stuff like + Show Spoiler +
this thread oozing with awesome.


for Zerg. I think partially, Zerg players really hate to confine themselves to strict build orders like that, and partially, they can't since one extra sunk or one less sunk or whatever changes supply and messes everything up. The Zerg player has to understand the build, rather than just follow the numbers, both because of the reason I mentioned just before, and the fact that the Zerg can't just sit in his base.
Many Protoss build orders involve sitting in your base massing units until you move out (the famous 1a2a3a I hear so much about) for the attack/expand. Terran can do something similar, just opening 1raxcc, and piling up mnm at the nat, until moving out with mnm, sci vessel, tanks (optional). Of course it's a bit different for Terran because muta harass is so common in ZvT, so they actually have something else to do while they macro (worker scouting doesn't count). Also, they're pressured to try to take out Zerg's 3rd before it gets secure, because TvZ get's much harder once the Zerg's 3rd gas kicks in.
But Zerg can't sit in their base like the other races can. Since maps have natural chokes, if Zerg masses units sitting in their base, they can easily get choked in. Zerg has to control units in the middle to see what's going on, and based on this, they must modify their build order to make that extra sunk, whore more drones, make more lings/hydras/whatever, which makes strict build orders for Zerg impossible, or at least unnatural.

My point is that I had trouble finding build orders to follow, so I ended up just playing out build orders repeatedly in single player until I found what I thought worked best. Result is this for ZvT:

+ Show Spoiler +
ZvT practice: 3hatch muta-lurk-defiler

-9 scout
-12 hatch
-11 pool
-3 (4) drones
-13 (14) hatch
-transfer 3 drones, make 6 (4) lings and gas
-16 overlord
-drone whore, making creep colonies only as needed, using a ling scout to know when to morph sunks
-lair with first 100 gas
-24/25 overlord
-nat gas when lair half done
-spire as soon as lair finishes
-use remaining larva for 3 overlords and a few drones which should put you at 33 or 35 supply
-send out a drone to take 3rd
-when spire finishes, take 3rd and hatch 9 mutas
-make 2 more mutas as gas permits, then build den and evo and get ling speed and build 2 more hatches in main/nat for mass unit pumping
-when den/evo finish, get lurker tech and armor
-when lurker tech is half done, make 5/6 hydras and send them where you want to morph them if needed
-after morphing hydras get queens nest, (second evo optional)
-when nest done, get hive
-obviously pump lurker/ling as needed, and send a ling to every untaken expo if you haven't already
-when hive done, get defiler mound
-when defiler mound done get consume
-when consume half done, make 2/3 defilers


It was really helpful for me to do this in multiple ways. First, up until now, my 3hatch muta I always got gas at 17 or so supply. Now that I know the correct time to get gas, my mutas come 30 seconds sooner (HUGE). Also, I got good practice with basic macro, since getting supply blocked is common for me.
I'm planning on going through some ZvP stuff next. My preferred ZvP style involves 5 hatch off 3 base, early evos (as in first 150 to armor, then melee attack a bit later) and spore(s) to deal with corsair and also to deal with DTs later. Ovie speed, then hive, then crack/3 armor/drop mass ling/ultra. I'm gonna try to work out a build with this idea in mind.


1v1 analysis:

Zerg(20 games)
( 4)ZvZ: 2-2 50.0%
( 6)ZvP: 3-3 50.0%
(10)ZvT: 3-7 30.0%

8-12 40.0%

overall:
Zerg(35 games)
( 6)ZvZ: 4- 2 66.6%
(14)ZvP: 4-10 28.5%
(15)ZvT: 4-11 26.6%

12-23 34.2%

ZvZ: I'm now favoring 9pool fast lair builds on maps with ramps, and overpool speed builds on maps where ling harass is a more viable option. Played 4 ZvZs, 2 against Koreans and I have no idea how I got owned so badly, 2 against non-Koreans and won.

ZvP: I need to work out a game plan. I've now manned up and realize that I need to 12hatch in ZvP, and along with better scouting, I'm doing okay. If not 12hatch, I go overpool speed, but that hasn't been working out too well. Protosses are too used to it now and it's becoming ineffective.

ZvT: See above. Besides the standard 3hatch muta, I'd like to work out another build as well, specifically a lurker opening similar to July vs FBH, though that build was map specific. + Show Spoiler +
July used the hills on Chupung to delay/contain FBH with a minimal number of lurkers, allowing him to tech quickly to guardians with 3hatches on 3 bases



Questions:

ZvZ:
No questions really, although I might post something in the strategy forum asking how I got raped so badly by those Koreans.

ZvP:
1. Any ZvP build order suggestions? I already mentioned what I'd like to try, but I have no idea if that's viable really. Though I've done it, it pretty much hinges on me being able to camp until I have 2/2 or better cracklings, at which point mass crackling with drops becomes a powerful attack.

ZvT:
1. Any imperfections in the above-mentioned build order?
2. Who da man? + Show Spoiler +
Jaedong da man+ Show Spoiler +
July too+ Show Spoiler +
and I hear Firefist used queens against go.go in the OSL games, but I can't find them on youtube+ Show Spoiler +
hyvaa would have been the man, but he couldn't flank for shit


As always, comments and constructive criticism welcome.

*****
Zoler
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Sweden6339 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-29 16:31:09
December 29 2008 16:28 GMT
#2
I agree. Zerg is the worst and hardest race. It's much easier to play terran and protoss obviously. That's why the TvZ and PvZ winning percetages is almost perfect at 50%. Poor zergs.

Seriously you can't just go cookie cutter build everytime with toss and terran. The zerg can do builds that counter these builds and if you don't addapt you insta die. It's not like you just macro macro blindly whatever the zerg does. If both you and the terran goes fairly standard (1 rax fe vs 3 hatch muta) you can do your 100% fine build order. And you can do that anyway at higher levels of course because you have learned how to addapt.
Lim Yo Hwan forever!
Wala.Revolution
Profile Blog Joined November 2006
7584 Posts
December 29 2008 16:40 GMT
#3
I can't help you on your Z builds, but for the +1 TvZ build, do the following.

9depot/10 rax. CC when you have money; skimp on rines if you see z doing 12 hatch and is cross. You can sometimes get away with building in nat if you feel confident vs 12 hatch.

Add a refinery after CC. Keep producing rines.

when the refinery is about 2/3-3/4 done, get an ebay. Weapons on completion.

Academy when you have the money right after ebay. Stim then range.

add 2 raxes when you have 300, and 2 more when you have 300 again.

From here, you can either stay on 5 rax and go for a push before their 3 hatch tech completes, forcing more sunks. Make more turrets in main, and make sure your simcity is done really well. Your nat and rally point-path can be skimpy on turrets because you have +1 rines. Focus fire on mutas. Push with a 2-3 CG of rines and about 6 meds.

Expo/tech while pushing.

For the above build, you must know the enemy's hatch number. If you saw 2 hatch, add a bunk or two or get turrets. If you fend off that 2 hatch muta even with excess number of turrets, you have the game. Just remember marine range isn't done when it comes. (or almost done). Vs lurks, make sure you have flank force. +1 rines will kill lurks and lings quickly, but only if flanked properly.

Add scans asap when academy is done because you usually need it for scouting tech.
Stuck.
Dromar
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States2145 Posts
December 29 2008 16:55 GMT
#4
On December 30 2008 01:28 Zoler wrote:
I agree. Zerg is the worst and hardest race. It's much easier to play terran and protoss obviously.


Maybe it's easy to misunderstand, but I wasn't trying to claim this. In my opinion macro is easier with Protoss and Terran though. I think the larva system is more difficult to master for early game than constant pumping from all production facilities, but of course there are several builds for Terran and Protoss that involve stopping SCV/probe production at specific times, just like Zerg builds. Maybe it's just that, with Terran, you have one guy constantly building supply depots, and you don't have to worry about supply. Protoss is somewhat similar, with a pro and a con. Usually I whore drones too much, then realize I need to build an overlord about 3 supply ago, but don't have any larva anymore, because I used them on drones.

Anyway, maybe my post came off whiny, but I'm not trying to start an argument about which race is ez-mode.
ScarFace
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1175 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-12-29 18:30:21
December 29 2008 18:25 GMT
#5
just try some 3 hatch lurker openings zvt, their totally valid at any level [barring pro gamer level]. It will save you a lot of time that all that attention on muta takes away. Your third will be slightly late, but whatever. It's a fairly adaptable build- if you really want to, you can just go low econ and push the mother fucking terran.

Edit: 3 hatch lurker has the same timings as three hatch muta, except you get a hydra den half way through lair, and get lurkers instead of mutalisks. If you dont know the timing [off the top of my head] its something like 12 hatch 14-16 gas, 21 3rd hatch [this is the thing Im most unsure of, havent played zerg in a while] and lair right away.
Can you dig it?
Tropics
Profile Joined August 2007
United Kingdom1132 Posts
December 29 2008 19:14 GMT
#6
Your ZvT build kind of sucks. You really need to get some zerglings out WITH speed before your mutas are out. Even something as small as threatening a backstab can save you so much money. You need less sunks because you're making lings and then less again because he can't pressure you at all without leaving some stuff at home or risking the game on it. Early game speedlings are absolutely immense, you need to filter them into your play. Even just for denying scouts and basic map control.
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