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Sometimes, certain people have the advantage during the discussion. Point being, most of the time i'm reading through the thread and replying instantly. I am on my smart phone while at work, and sometimes my points come off as fragmented and unclear. However, some people seem to have a lot more free time on their hands and write long essays backed by sources.
As a more casual poster, this sometimes comes as intimidating, and really I cannot compete, as I really don't have the time to work that hard on my posts.
I am not saying that as a bad thing, but there is obviously an advantage in the argument if you are actually sitting at a computer with free time on your hands to formulate a thorough argument.
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Oh no, the kids were talking in a wrong way about politics on our sacred forums, what a tragedy, we must do something about it!
No, you don't.
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I miss the thread.
I promise I'll behave, Kwark ;_;
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So I have read more through the last 20 pages of the thread and it really gets clearer and clearer what the problem is. Sure, there were some personal attacks, but they weren't really that bad, they never targeted anyone who hasn't before shown willingness to engage in heated discussion, so nobody can say that someone was "hurt". But as I see it, the real problem appeared when some people dared to have opinions that some moderators consider prohibited. It's all the same story again, where TL pretends to be a "discussion forum", but discussion is allowed only when aligned with the agenda of a specific group of people. And look, it's even the same name with the red hammer as in the previous instances of the same happening, how surprising. Killing innocent people is bad, m`kay?
Even more telling of the state of affairs here is how while Trump is a complete buffoon and I have no idea how a sane person can even consider voting for it, it's actually the anti-Trump folks who are seriously transgressing all boundaries of useful discussions. The whole idea that just shouting "RACISM RACISM" loud and often enough makes a point is really symptomatic to how certain people thing discussion should look these days. I don't even understand why those stern fighters against racism and social injustice in general waste their time on TL, when such nice and convenient outlets for their righteous rage exists, such as SRS.
I have absolutely zero faith that anything's gonna change as long as this place is run by people like Kwark, but whatever. It was fun while it lasted, now US politics has joined the ranks of religion, gender and Ukraine as topics that can never ever be discussed on TL and at least it's now known openly and people can just move on to shitpost another topic into oblivion, one by one.
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Canada10958 Posts
You say that as though Kwark is acting as a one man show, when he quite clearly said he was making a time out to give a chance for other moderators to chime in behind the scenes. I had already expressed my frustration with the current state of the thread in the US Politics thread (a week ago and nearly a hundred pages since then) and there are a fair number of moderators that don't even want to touch the thread with a ten foot pole.
The problem isn't quite so simple as outright flaming- that's very easy to moderate. It's far more insidious, but the effect is we have stopped having a discussion, and instead a critical mass from the different camps are just lobbing snowballs at each other. It's the passive-aggressive, barely contained contempt for each others positions that is near impossible to moderate, whether the poster is pro-Trump, anti-Trump, pro-Bernie, anti-Bernie, pro-Hillary, or anti-Hillary. It would be nice if there was an enforced cross-examine period, where people must seek to understand each others positions before proceeding to pick them apart (and in turn that the cross-examine must be answered). But any sorts of strictures (including post length) doesn't really tackle the attitude issue, and really the thread has never been a formal debate, but rather a free wheeling discussion. That versatility has been it's strength in the past, but this has been an ongoing problem for some time, but I don't really see how it could have been corrected then or now.
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Well I named KwarK personally, because he was the most visible person behind the previous similar situations and he also appears here, having expressed his attitudes in the thread now in question. I understand this is not a single person problem, but he is just someone I am pretty sure is a part of it - that there are other moderators with similar views on what should not be open to discussion is pretty obvious given the size of the moderation team.
A thread on a discussion forum will never be a "formal debate", lol, I don't really know what you are trying to do with that comment. The "Trump is bad, no Hillary is worse" part of the thread is pretty boring, I concede that. But there were several subthreads going on that were more interesting. The "should we kill innocent people" debate could have been good, if it weren't for the people who came in shouting that we definitely shouldn't and even discussing that is outrageous - and that includes some mods (frankly don't remember how many and can't be bothered to look it up). Or the part about weather Trump was justified in rejecting a judge with mexican heritage could have had some content if it weren't for people shouting "racism, racism, racism is baaaaad" all over the place. And that's kinda the day-to-day state of this thread for some time already.
But I just can't see ever TL staff warning and banning the ones who are truly disruptive, because they are on the "right side", because it's exactly the opposing viewpoint that you guys want to not hear. And that has been the problem of every "sensitive" discussion here so far.
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Honestly, as someone occasionnally reading and posting in that thread, I can say it's one of the lowest quality thread I've ever seen (although the last pages before the lockup don't seem too bad to me?). And the worst thing about that it's that this low quality is not even inherent to the thread itself, it's down to only a few individuals who turn stuff into shit and attack people personally (though often in a "clever", indirect manner) as soon as they can.
Thus I think the thread itself is no problem, and I think it's important to have a US Politics thread. But it needs some serious moderation which actually punishes repeated low-quality posting. And the standard for "low-quality posting" must be high again.
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I'd disagree with opisska that it's more of an only one right view situation. While there are shades of that, and I can see how it would appear that way; to my eye more of the issue is that some people persist in asserting things despite substantial counter-evidence having been posted, repeatedly. Having to relitigate issues, especially with the same person, over and over again, gets frustrating. At some point, when someone is ignoring repeated evidence, it's hard to come up with anything other than repeating the well documented point.
More willingness to recognize a view as plausible, but one that one disagrees with, would also help. though even for that, i'd say there are some justified exceptions.
imho, making clear what one asserts as one's own opinion, and what one considers to be fact, can also help. too often people are railling against a perceived view that some people in the world/internet have, rather than the view actually being stated by the people in thread.
The lack of a universally accepted finder of fact to help arbitrate things is an inevitable problem that I see no way around.
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Looks like another thread needs locking should consistency be any sort of value here.
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Canada10958 Posts
A thread on a discussion forum will never be a "formal debate", lol, I don't really know what you are trying to do with that comment. It will never be a formal debate, but there is something to be learned from that part of it- actually establishing what the other side believes before picking it apart. This goes to your comment about one side jumping straight into 'racisim', 'racism' comment. It's not a discussion because people are talking past each other, ignoring counter-evidence, etc.
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United States40832 Posts
If the US Politics Megathread were not an internet discussion it would not be a friendly discussion or even a hostile debate, it would be a fistfight. It's that which I'm hoping we'll work out how to fix.
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On June 13 2016 06:25 KwarK wrote: If the US Politics Megathread were not an internet discussion it would not be a friendly discussion or even a hostile debate, it would be a fistfight. It's that which I'm hoping we'll work out how to fix.
That's how it would get solved where I grew up. Winner of the fistfight is right, until they lose or don't want to fight over it. I'd subscribe for a lifetime membership prepaid to TL+ to see people from the politics thread in any sort of fisticuffs TL could organize.
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More of a yelling match than a fistfight really. And it's easy to fix, it's just a lot of work, and even then really more a moderate amoutn of work, and the unpleasantness of having to warn a lot of people.
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I think Kwark's ban of Testie in the Orlando shooter thread shows all that I need to see about why the US Politics Thread was closed. This isn't about a new, worse tone or lessened level of discourse. Let me be blunt: the level of discourse has always been shitty from various participants. And the fact that Kwark is the one who shut the thread down is incredibly ironic, because he, of all of the mods who posted in that thread, did the most to create precisely the environment about which he now complains.
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On June 13 2016 11:05 xDaunt wrote: I think Kwark's ban of Testie in the Orlando shooter thread shows all that I need to see about why the US Politics Thread was closed. This isn't about a new, worse tone or lessened level of discourse. Let me be blunt: the level of discourse has always been shitty from various participants. And the fact that Kwark is the one who shut the thread down is incredibly ironic, because he, of all of the mods who posted in that thread, did the most to create precisely the environment about which he now complains.
I've seen Kwark say more insulting things to TL posters than any other TL mod. I prefer the perspective I've seen on other forums, where mods are "above the fray" and don't get into the mud with other posters. While somewhat unfair, I think it is the burden a mod should bare. The main reason is for things like this. Kwark ends up coming off as partial and unfair in light of how he's behaved in the thread itself.
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That ban of Testie is absolutely ridiculous. Frankly, it makes me not even want to post here anymore.
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On June 13 2016 11:10 SolaR- wrote: That ban of Testie is absolutely ridiculous. Frankly, it makes me not even want to post here anymore. I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore.
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United States40832 Posts
On June 13 2016 11:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 11:10 SolaR- wrote: That ban of Testie is absolutely ridiculous. Frankly, it makes me not even want to post here anymore. I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore. I did not lock the topic for the exact same shit that was ruining it to go to every other general forum topic. When it is reopened that will be the place for that shit. Not every tragedy needs to be politicized immediately.
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On June 13 2016 11:18 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 11:10 SolaR- wrote: That ban of Testie is absolutely ridiculous. Frankly, it makes me not even want to post here anymore. I wasn't going to say anything until I saw that ban. But it was just too much to ignore.
I am glad you did. I didn't think about this earlier, but you're right. Kwark has often spoke in a very bullyish tone in the mega thread. The typical "my opinion is better than your opinion attitude, and if you disagree with me you're either ignorant or complete piece of shit".
I don't know if that is true, but that is generally vibe that I feel from him. Kwark, you can correct me if I am wrong. However, seeing that others have a similar perception of you and the recently ban of Testie, I feel forced to voice my opinion on all of this as well.
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