|
On March 07 2023 22:57 AncientSion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 21:19 TMNT wrote: And where is it supposed to go? The money goes where the payers want it to go.
If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion. Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 22:38 whylessness wrote: TMNT has it right. tasteless and artosis have been casting starcraft together for more than ten years... although the doting fans who comment on the afreecatv esports tastetosis vods and say they will never watch ASL without tastetosis commentary and treat the nyoken/scan/eonzerg casts as if they don't exist are actually brain damaged in my opinion.
I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL. I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
Listen, I remember Artosis living in his Mom and Grandma's house in New Hampshire in a little attic / loft space above the living room with nothing more than a bed, computer, water dispenser, learning Korean books, and a calendar with StarCraft dates on it. He would spend an hour or two a day grinding cent poker so he could go to the local Walmart and buy $1 Tony crispy crust pizzas to live off of and the rest of his time would be grinding out StarCraft. When I first visited him in Korea, he had a little shit apartment in some back alleyway and got his foot ran over by a car one night while we were out and he couldn't go to the hospital because he didn't have any health insurance to speak of. I remember him being poor for so fucking long. I remember fronting Tasteless money for a plane ticket once so he could get to a StarCraft tournament because he too was broke AF and didn't have the money (then I accidentally booked it for the wrong year back and he got fucked at the airport 😑, still dont know how I did that lol). The point is, those guys were broke AF chasing a dream. It's like anyone struggling to start a brand or business. I couldn't eat out or do anything for like a year 1/2 straight when I quit my day job and started my marketing business from the ground up 11 years ago. I would go to Mexican restaurants with friends and have the free chips and salsa for my meal. It's the price you pay sometimes to go after something. If it were easy, everyone would do it. Why in the fuck do you think anyone who struggled and sacrificed for years (and with Tasteless and Artosis, it was yeeeears) to build something is obligated to give back once they FINALLY become successful? Especially when it's giving back to competing entertainment? This is Dan and Nick's livelihood and they owe nothing more than to put out the best content they can for you all.
With that said, I will say, they are very generous in many aspects. I've seen them behind the scenes fight for players in numerous instances. Artosis once threatened a walkout of all foreigners to Korean organizers for a tournament in Korea called IEF where it was Boxer, Bisu, EffOrt, Stork, and a bunch of top foreigners because they told us (after we got there) that they wanted us to play a Bo1 single elimination format and he stood up and spoke for all of us that we didn't fucking travel across the world for 1 fucking game. When I would go on the pylon show etc., Artosis would try to force you to take the money for being on the show even if you said you didn't want it. I've seen both of them help players, other casters, etc. with tips, shoutouts, spots on shows in interviews or as co-casters, etc.
Nyoken, Scan, and now Eonzerg, all do a great job. Ive been friends with Nyoken for years and he's always been a phenomenal caster. I watch StarCast almost exclusively because ASL English vods come out so fucking late but if they want some more money there, they should promote their own shit more and build it up like Taste and Arty have. They're all friends with Nick and Dan and if Nyoken or Scan wanted tips on how to grow an eSports business, Artosis and Tasteless would happily explain it to them. Straight up giving them money though is a weird ask thougj and not something they're obligated to do by any stretch of the imagination.
|
United Kingdom12011 Posts
On March 07 2023 10:48 LG)Sabbath wrote: This seems to just be Leonix's opinion, it's a clickbaity thread tbh
As for BSL, personally I am watching less due to the round robin format, there are no stakes and it seems like endless games with noone getting eliminated so it's kind of a chore to watch. I appreciate that Zero is trying out new things to make the streams work better but this season didn't work for me, previous ones were much better so I hope the next one has some changes and he works out how to keep people interested.
Another thing is that the money in BW is in the korean and chinese scene, so it's best to try to integrate with those communities as much as possible if you want to make a living out of BSL.
As for the game being "dead", lol it could in fact be a good time for BW to grow actually, due to SC2 funding issues and possibly SC2 pros moving to BW.
Issue you have with that is BSL essentially set it up as THE foreigner tournament. You can integrate the Chinese scene more into that but then you run into the problem STPL had which is actually scheduling games. Due to the fact BSL is played live you'd have to have some players up until like 4-5AM which just isn't feasible.
You also have the people in the non korean scene who think putting koreans in anything ruins it. Look at what happened with HAY. Some players refused to participate because Koreans took part and that's likely part of the reason ZZZero chose to ban koreans to begin with. He also wanted it to be a non-korean only tournament to find the best of the best outside of Korea and he definitely achieved that. He's done an amazing job.
The situation ZZZero is in he can't really change his format up too much if he wants the tournament to be regarded as it currently is. Whatever you do in his position format wise you can't really win, you either appeal to one side or the other and neither side of that will make him the money he needs to support his family sadly.
People in the Broodwar community are not a group of gamers where twitch and streaming has been common place from the beginning like it was with SC2. People haven't had to pay for content for years like other communities and even now there's plenty of people working really hard on tournaments and doing it for free, so there's no real incentive for people to pay either, at least not to the numbers streamers would need to earn a living.
One thing people need to be realistic with is growing as a streamer is super difficult and that's even in a new popular game. Tasteless and Artosis worked incredibly hard and suffered for a long time to make it work. In the end, their growth also had external factors which helped a bunch. They were in a position where a lot of doors opened to them when SC2 arrived and the fact they got to cast all those events gained them a much bigger following which nobody really has that opportunity now. I don't think even if we all switched to Stormgate when it comes out we'd have the same opportunity because there's already big streamers going to switch any any major casting gigs would unless some miracle happened just go to them as well.
If you're starting with nothing, which is essentially what ZZZero has done even to grow to the size he has is absolutely amazing. Going past that is going to be very difficult, there isn't an audience there to actually pick up. They're either watching other games or not interested in StarCraft in the English speaking audience. It's not just an issue with Broodwar, you can look at other games as well. If you were starting out when Mario Maker came out for instance you had a much easier time to grow than if you started now. People have already found the users they like and unless you have a very big niche and try something completely new a lot of people will have very little reason to go watch other streams as well.
There's a reason why nobody else in Broodwar gets the same viewer levels as Artosis and it's not because Broodwar is a dead game, it's because they've likely followed Artosis through one of the many other games or live events he's been involved in and love watching him play whatever he plays. They have very little reason to go watch other people, they get their starcraft fix with him. If ZZZero had a load of live events he could go cast in hosted by IEM or ESL I'm sure he'd get a bigger following quicker as well, but that's basically impossible now.
I will say I agree with everything tec said, his post was great.
|
On March 07 2023 22:35 [JXSA].Zergling wrote: BSL has a big problem. There are so many top Chinese players participating in the competition, but the audience who know the competition is very small, and the number of Chinese sponsors who know the competition is very small. Except for the finals, few Chinese audiences know the competition, and it is difficult to get a lot of sponsorship from the Chinese audience. Chinese sponsors can spend $1000 a day to sponsor the contestants and anchors of the competition. Sometimes, they sponsor the contestants for $5000 a day just because they win the mihu. In addition to receiving the support of the audience, China's live broadcast will also sell things during the live broadcast. Just selling things may earn more than 10000 dollars a month.
You probably have the pulse on this better than anyone in here since foreigners are so siloed from the Chinese BW community but wouldn't there be an audience if BSL was re-broadcasted for the Chinese audience?
Literally someone paying Zzzero to have the content and do whatever they want with it. Do their advertising over the games, have their own casters etc.
I think the level of competition (especially Ro16 onwards) is very good. Sometimes the games are more fun than ASL.
|
Opening up to Chinese players is when I stopped supporting BSL; because Chinese players have a heavy linked identity with Koreans, there is millions of ethnic Koreans who are now Chinese or living in china, so a ban to Koreans would practically mean a ban to Chinese players; For me it is is not only foreign broodwar anymore, but a mixed link;
Also, relates, zero said the prize pool is there; I believe the reason as some in the thread said before is that people do not see the point in supporting the organizer, and his family; because we have been used to this for years; tons of “free” content; people just do not see the point in supporting a guy who is not actually playing the game; for me its the Chinese conundrum that put me off
|
On March 08 2023 04:51 pebble444 wrote: Opening up to Chinese players is when I stopped supporting BSL; because Chinese players have a heavy linked identity with Koreans, there is millions of ethnic Koreans who are now Chinese or living in china, so a ban to Koreans would practically mean a ban to Chinese players; For me it is is not only foreign broodwar anymore, but a mixed link;
Wait, what? I'm sorry but this is a weird AF line of thought. What do the millions of Koreans living in China have anything to do with BW?
Also, like, half the NA players have the surname Kim or Park if you pay any attention. Might as well ban them, and ban the whole NA in the process because I'm sure there are millions of Koreans living there as well.
|
On March 08 2023 06:16 TMNT wrote:
Wait, what? I'm sorry but this is a weird AF line of thought. What do the millions of Koreans living in China have anything to do with BW?
Sure it might be weird for you, but to me it makes sense; it’s my money and I decide who to give it to; this thread was as I understood it about why would more people not give to support the bsl. I gave my straightforward answer.
|
On March 08 2023 00:13 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 00:02 TMNT wrote:On March 07 2023 22:57 AncientSion wrote: If you think that Artosis and Tasteless earning 9.500 $ every months for casting english ASL on top of their sponsorships, their ad revenue and their subscription cuts while BSL and StarcastTV are struggling to even break even is fine, i dont know what to tell you. Just let it sink in, 9.500 $ each month. For what, not worth it that in my opinion.
Nah you still don't get it. They earn that much every month not just because of them casting English ASL. It's because they came to Korea 15 years ago and worked their ass off since, and in the process built themselves a solid fanbase. BSL and SCTV haven't gotten to that point yet. Honestly I don't know if they ever can, because the timing is not right, the scene is not that active, and the demand is certainly not the same... I would put "respect" on their name if they forwarded a tiny portion of their insanely huge income to StarcastTV and or BSL but i cant remember any donation from their end to the last 10 BSL seasons, especially not one that stands out in context to their obscene income. Of course i cant force them but i sure as hell wont give "respect" to their name LOL.
I clearly remember when they opened the Patreon for the english ASL cast and made, i think it was 55.000 $ and then delivered their "cast" 8 weeks later.
And this line of thinking is just silly. This is the equivalent of complaing about someone buying a Rolex instead of donating to the children lol. Also the money is not that obsecene when you consider they have to pay their production crew as well and then divide it among themselves. It's really the basic income for one person with a normal job in SK, maybe a bit low for Seoul even. I don't really understand why Tasteless and Artosis are even discussion points. There are several people who take an interest in Brood War who could single-handedly pay ZZZero's salary out of pocket. No one should hate them for not taking an interest in BSL... Or at least, if you do hate them, keep it to yourself. Show nested quote +On March 07 2023 23:50 GeckoXp wrote: Does anyone realize that this discussion is about an assumption of a random person and so far nothing has been said by BSL officials or ZZZero? TL.net in a nutshell. Also, this ^
Omg.Tl got so crazy even Gecko and Eywa started agreeing with another. That i lived long enough to see that day.
Topic..hmh: same old same old. It depends on your definition if "gaem is dead gaem". Bikini streamers alone wont do the trick. Yes china has way better sponsors, has always been that way coz china is 1 market and "the foreign scene" is more than one in reality. Going bw full time= very likely not gonna work, but lets support the hero zzzzero and be positive about it.
/back to lurking.
|
Netherlands4504 Posts
Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely
What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time.
I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would.
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps.
Perhaps eSports-fund can help out BSL once more?
|
On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played.
Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever!
|
ALLEYCAT BLUES49044 Posts
Renamed thread, please put in some more support for ZZZero to keep his goals of running BSL events full time.
BSL patreon linked in the OP but incase you missed it: https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic
|
On March 07 2023 17:36 AncientSion wrote:In my opinion, the main problem is this. The Starcast_TV youtube channel sits on like 500 bucks Patreon support (while Scan was apparently asking for 2000 bucks to cast ASL) https://www.patreon.com/starcasttvI was just checking out the the Artosis and Tasteless Patreon and they do a whooping 10000 bucks monthly. Yes, 1700 supporters and 10000 bucks PER M ONTHS for a late and at best mediocre cast. https://www.patreon.com/ASLenglishSo yeah the money is there but its not going where its supposed to go. Its a disgrace as far as i am concerned. BSL is fine, could be improved, sure but its okay. However, i think expecting to get 2500 bucks per months and make a living out of organizing tournaments is in my opinion a rather high bar. Obviously its not impossible but highly unlikely. In regards to "dead game", its hard to say. I think brood war is kinda of in between "alive and well" and "going into a coma". The high skilled foreigner always have 50 to 150 viewer regardless of time of day or night which isnt bad i dont think. But its also not great. Top homm3 or AoE2 streamers can get 500 to 1000 viewers and they dont wear a swimsuit either. EDIT Just to be clear, what Zzzero and the casters like Diggity, Doc etc have done is great, also great that voggy, Kwark or JJ helped out was fantastic. And then there is Nyoken, whose commitment is just on another level, casting BSL after BSL and then even waking up early every other day to give us fantastic commentary on ASL together with Eonzerg. So i think we have lots of really hardcore fans that go above and beyond to support brood war. I just wish viewers would step up as well. Would it really hurt you to donate 2 to 5 bucks each months ? Thats the cost of a single covefe...
It's covfefe first of all (learn teh crct spllng ; D)...
|
On March 08 2023 16:12 masoka82 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever! With ASL format and (more importantly!) ASL qualification system even I would go back to supporting BSL again. ((won't answer to replies, I only wanted to say this))
|
On March 08 2023 16:12 masoka82 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:
The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. Totally agree here, I would love to see the ASL, CSL... format again. Best of luck to zzzero, and I still think it's possible with everyone's little grain of sand. BSL Forever! normal MSL groups for ro24 and 16 and a double elimination bo5 with bo7 bracket finals and bo9 grand final would have been much better, I agree.
|
Russian Federation1888 Posts
Don't quarel guys. There are not enough of you to further split up.
|
On March 08 2023 18:11 Rus_Brain wrote: Don't quarel guys. There are not enough of you to further split up. we are legion
|
My BROS I am an SC:BW streamer for LATAM and living from streaming is not an option especially for Starcraft content creators. We are like any of you who enjoy playing and watching SC, and if at any time it becomes difficult to upload content or we leave them for a certain time it is because we also have problems, demotivation, priorities, etc. but above all we have a family which needs time to enjoy with us. I admire the work of ZZZERO because making a tournament of a dead game or whatever you want to call it, is an incredible task but good if he himself has realized that he does not generate money, I particularly would not put the integrity of my family at stake, with the respect you deserve ZZZERO I think you do not want to leave your comfort zone and on the other hand leave your passion but it is time to do it for those who love you. Family is family
STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
by Converick
|
On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time. I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would. The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps. Perhaps eSports-fund can help out BSL once more?
I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good.
As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition.
Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback.
|
Netherlands4504 Posts
On March 09 2023 02:48 Cele wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time. I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would. The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps. Perhaps eSports-fund can help out BSL once more? I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good. As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition. Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback. No worries. I'm happy to know other people enjoy it.
I agree with that there were some really good games, my point is that that (imo) takes away excitement from the finals. We now know better what to expect and fthere is a higher chance the best match was already played. Ideally the finals is the cream of the crop.
|
On March 09 2023 00:50 Converick wrote: My BROS I am an SC:BW streamer for LATAM and living from streaming is not an option especially for Starcraft content creators. We are like any of you who enjoy playing and watching SC, and if at any time it becomes difficult to upload content or we leave them for a certain time it is because we also have problems, demotivation, priorities, etc. but above all we have a family which needs time to enjoy with us. I admire the work of ZZZERO because making a tournament of a dead game or whatever you want to call it, is an incredible task but good if he himself has realized that he does not generate money, I particularly would not put the integrity of my family at stake, with the respect you deserve ZZZERO I think you do not want to leave your comfort zone and on the other hand leave your passion but it is time to do it for those who love you. Family is family
STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
by Converick
"STARCRAFT WILL NEVER COME BEFORE MY FAMILY, because I can lose a game for a rookie but never lose my family for prioritizing a game.
by Converick"
respect
|
On March 09 2023 03:29 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2023 02:48 Cele wrote:On March 08 2023 14:12 Peeano wrote:Some things wrong with this thread: - The title (as pointed out already) - In the entire thread https://www.patreon.com/Bombastic link has been missing completely What ZZZero is doing is amazing. Like I have said in another thread, I think he just needs a bit more time to keep building his brand and that he should consider a lower prize pool or fewer seasons, to continue his dream full-time. I also think having 10 different casters hurts BSL more than having just 2-4, however it is commendable and sincere as fuck to give all those casters a chance to grow. It's like ZZZero is taking them under his wing as a guardian would. The current BSL format shouldn't be repeated imho. It is much more exciting to watch the top titans duke it out only after they finally reached the final defeating all competition in their way than having what's essentially 20+ show matches within the same tournament before the semi-finals and finals are even played. I totally get the thought behind it though and no1 can learn without making mistakes. If BSL doesn't already have one, a thinking tank could definitely be beneficial in making BSL even better quicker. Production value in the last 2 seasons has made impressively big steps. Perhaps eSports-fund can help out BSL once more? I actually like the current ro8 format, i think it gives you a much better perspective in the skill level of the players relative to the others. Yes its a ton of games to "just cut from 8 to 6" but i dont mind. Imagine we would've had for ex. Mihu vs oya as bo3 and we would have missed those amazing series mihu vs dewalt, vs sziky., vs bony. All those were INCREDIBLY good. As Zzzero is reading here, i want to strongly point out that including the chinese on the big scale has been the best thing in foreign broodwar since forever period (!) - we are way better connected to china then ever. - games are much more exciting for viewers. For a long time, there was always a clear favorite with not too much suprises. Now BSL is very exciting, when top "western foreigners" and chinese clash, im on the edge of my seat. - its obv great for the players themselves to have a better competition. Last part is not contrary to you Peeano, just my general thoughts and feedback. No worries. I'm happy to know other people enjoy it. I agree with that there were some really good games, my point is that that (imo) takes away excitement from the finals. We now know better what to expect and fthere is a higher chance the best match was already played. Ideally the finals is the cream of the crop.
I think both formats have merit, but I think having both round robin and knockout bracket is redundant. Generally, I think round robin is better for team events and elimination bracket is better for individual events... At least that's my preference. But I also think BSL should just mirror ASL format.
|
|
|
|