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Forenote: I find teamliquid.net's blog section to be a very nice outlet for creative writing, but honestly, I'm not too famliar with blogging guidelines, so if I'm blogging too frequently... Well, I just searched "Blogging Guidelines" and couldn't find any rules about blogging too frequently, so here goes. I made this blog to accommodate those whom are confined to their home countries. Skip down to the last sentence for the TL;DR version.
I want you to imagine for a minute...
The typical Japanese Citizen.
The typical citizen of Nigeria.
The typical citizen of Pakistan.
The typical Indian citizen.
The typical Iraqi citizen.
The typical Mexican citizen.
The typical German citizen.
Or the typical citizen of China.
Now I want you to imagine the typical citizen of the USA, born and raised. In case you don't quite catch what I'm trying to get you guys to think about, I brought up a rainbow of nationalities (or at least tried), to sort of give you a black and white picture of what to think about the various skin colors, mother tongues, and cultural backgrounds. Now I'm going to try and break this black and white idealogy.
In America, it seems most everyone who was at least born here can speak English, regardless of skin color. It may or may not go coupled with their mother tongue, but every now and then it seems we give our minorities crap. Whether it be tasteless jokes, profiling, or anything in between. I'll come back to that later.
Globalization is the simple thought process that we have countries becoming increasingly intertwined, which, with the advent of the 21st century, should come as less and less surprising because of transatlantic and transpacific flights. I have been to seven different countries within my lifetime, and after my last venture abroad, I am telling you that nothing would surprise me anymore. Which brings me to this point...
America, Canada, as well as many members of the EU, are not the only countries that exist which have "green cards" to give to their netizens. China has green cards (which are extremely difficult to get), so does Korea (which, at the time I last researched, is about as difficult to get as China), and so does Japan (but you have to be REALLY willing to become Japanese to get one, not quite as difficult as China or Korea), and so does Taiwan (fairly easy for Americans, Aussies, New Zealanders, and Europeans), and Singapore (painfully easy, but work is difficult to find). I am recalling all of these green card requirements off the top of my head, so please forgive me if any of this is inconsistent with your own personal research or experience. Continuing on...
I knew that before I went to Taiwan I was going to find foreigners that had Taiwanese citizenship, no doubt in my mind. But I was originally thinking that it would mostly be people from lesser developed countries, like Thailand, The Philippines, or Indonesia, or if I ran in to a foreigner from a more developed country with Taiwanese citizenship, I was thinking it would be an American / Canadian / EU member national that was looking to retire in Taiwan. However, there was a very big exception to that rule and I found it. I discovered that a few Taiwanese families like to adopt children and raise them themselves, which is quite converse to that of the mainland Chinese ideology, and furthermore for the communists, almost impossible to accommodate in their current legal situations with immigration customs and Chinese Nationality Laws. So, now and then I ran across foreigners from America, and some from Niger, that were adopted as young children and raised in Taiwan. They are Taiwanese citizens. I can only imagine the amount of discrimination or profiling they faced growing up. Because, honestly, even though Taiwan is a globalized place, I feel that the majority ethnicity is Han Chinese or Taiwanese aborigines. And because these foreign-born people are Taiwanese nationals, but they are not ethnically Chinese, I would not be surprised to see that they faced discrimination or profiling. Possibly the one thing that is most unexpected from all of this is, I remember hearing some of them spoke better Chinese than their mother tongue.
I remember some oh-so-slight profiling I faced when I was in Taiwan. I remember I was at a 7-11 waiting for my food to heat up in the microwave, and I just remarked to this guy that was shopping, "我從來沒看到蘋果牛奶“ ("I've never seen apple milk before.") and his girlfriend just flipped out and said, "哇！你會講國語嗎？！" (”Whoa, you can speak Chinese?!"). The irony of this is, the place where I bought my lunch was less than one mile from National Taiwan University, which is basically like Harvard or Yale for Taiwan.
California is probably the biggest rainbow of American blended ethnicities in the U.S.A. Probably the prime example of America being a "melting pot." Many modern Chinese in California are descended from the generations that built the railroad system almost one hundred years ago. Many of them are third or fourth generation Americans but speak no Chinese what so ever, and as such they are as American as anyone else in this country. However, the onset of globalization has yet to take full effect and I think we will see this happen more and more in the next century...
EDIT: People give me shit everywhere for speaking Chinese. Both in strides like, "Oh dude, that white guy speaks Chinese." and in tones like "Fuckin' nerd." from inbred white trash that seek simply to disturb my peace. Honestly, the latter doesn't bother me that much because I'm making more progress in life than they are. However, modern Asian immigrants face the stereotypical, "This guy doesn't speak English well, how the hell is he working for us?" tone, or the condescending, "You speak English very well." from monolinguals who really don't understand what it is like to encounter language difficulties and just say it as a form of passage or course of routine when dealing with non-Americans in America. Typically, people just dismiss it and move on. But when a white guy speaks Chinese, everybody stares and everybody asks questions, regardless. The funny thing is the conversations I've had with people who don't speak Chinese at all:
"Wow, you speak that language fluently?"
"What language?"
"That language you were just speaking."
"Oh, you mean English?"
"No, that other one."
"What other one? Do you even know what it's called?"
"No."
"Then how do you know I speak it fluently?"
But if someone just happens to guess correctly, the conversation might go like this...
"Wow, it sounds like you speak Chinese fluently!"
"Wait, how do you know? Do you speak Chinese?"
"No."
"Then how do you know? Because I work at a restaurant?"
The most annoying thing on Earth is, by God, the idiots who talk to me in English while I'm having a conversation in Chinese with someone else. This results in me not being to process either conversation that either person is trying to have with me.
Most of the time I just ignore the questions, "Where'd you learn to speak Chinese?", ”Where'd you learn to speak that language?", and this is probably the token dumbest question I have gotten before, from a fat redneck in his 40s, "Where'd you learn to speak Oriental?" After a while I would just hear the word "Where" and then I wouldn't even bother turning my head to the person who was talking to me. I only speak Mandarin if I know a coworker or friend's English is deficient, or if I'm casting some games on the Taiwanese server.
Honestly, I just got sick of being noticed, and blindly praised for it. It is racist, or you could call it the double-standard. However, conversely, above, I have stated that I like to cast games in Chinese. Some of you are probably thinking, "Isn't that hypocritical?" that would be considered "selling his minority", he just said he hates getting blindly praised by people who donno wtf they're talking about. The truth is, it might just bother me a little bit, but not to the extent that what I get now does. I wouldn't mind walking down the streets of Zhongxiao Dunhua in Taipei and having a random passerby notice me as "Breaker" or "Enders" because of the accomplishments that I made in my lifetime with Starcraft. Doing something original that no foreigner in Taiwan or China has done before: being good at casting competitive SC2 games in Chinese. How many white guys have done that? Meh, a guy can dream.
That was a whole other rant.
TL;DR Version: Skin color, citizenship, and mother-tongue have virtually no connection anymore.
 
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
so you rage when people are suprised you speak chinese?
and yeah double standards 
Be happy that "dumb" people show a little interest when they encounter something new.
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On August 07 2012 01:10 Chexx wrote:so you rage when people are suprised you speak chinese? and yeah double standards Be happy that "dumb" people show a little interest when they encounter something new.
You're, I'm guessing, German.
How many people ask you on a daily basis, "Where'd you learn to speak English?", in German? Probably close to zero.
My main problem is, it is a racially motivated question, and I have already demonstrated that I've seen black and white citizens of Taiwan that speak much much better Chinese than English.
Like I said, skin color and mother-tongue no longer have any connection.
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:25 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 01:10 Chexx wrote:so you rage when people are suprised you speak chinese? and yeah double standards Be happy that "dumb" people show a little interest when they encounter something new. You're, I'm guessing, German. How many people ask you on a daily basis, "Where'd you learn to speak English?", in German? Probably close to zero. My main problem is, it is a racially motivated question, and I have already demonstrated that I've seen black and white citizens of Taiwan that speak much much better Chinese than English. Like I said, skin color and mother-tongue no longer have any connection.
But I get the question often "you can speak Korean or you can speak Japanese?"
Since I am living in Korea since 8 months this happened quite often.
Currently I am working in a Guesthouse/Hotel and the guests are quite supriesed if I talk to them in Korean or Japanese.
But I know what you mean
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tldr: It's racist and annoying when people praise my chinese language skills.
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On August 07 2012 02:02 Chexx wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 01:25 Enders116 wrote:On August 07 2012 01:10 Chexx wrote:so you rage when people are suprised you speak chinese? and yeah double standards Be happy that "dumb" people show a little interest when they encounter something new. You're, I'm guessing, German. How many people ask you on a daily basis, "Where'd you learn to speak English?", in German? Probably close to zero. My main problem is, it is a racially motivated question, and I have already demonstrated that I've seen black and white citizens of Taiwan that speak much much better Chinese than English. Like I said, skin color and mother-tongue no longer have any connection. But I get the question often "you can speak Korean or you can speak Japanese?" Since I am living in Korea since 8 months this happened quite often. Currently I am working in a Guesthouse/Hotel and the guests are quite supriesed if I talk to them in Korean or Japanese. But I know what you mean
Oh, cool. Are you there for the pro-gaming scene? Or do you do business?
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Korea (South)11232 Posts
On August 07 2012 02:08 Enders116 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 02:02 Chexx wrote:On August 07 2012 01:25 Enders116 wrote:On August 07 2012 01:10 Chexx wrote:so you rage when people are suprised you speak chinese? and yeah double standards Be happy that "dumb" people show a little interest when they encounter something new. You're, I'm guessing, German. How many people ask you on a daily basis, "Where'd you learn to speak English?", in German? Probably close to zero. My main problem is, it is a racially motivated question, and I have already demonstrated that I've seen black and white citizens of Taiwan that speak much much better Chinese than English. Like I said, skin color and mother-tongue no longer have any connection. But I get the question often "you can speak Korean or you can speak Japanese?" Since I am living in Korea since 8 months this happened quite often. Currently I am working in a Guesthouse/Hotel and the guests are quite supriesed if I talk to them in Korean or Japanese. But I know what you mean Oh, cool. Are you there for the pro-gaming scene? Or do you do business?
I am studying "asian studies" in Germany with Japanese and Korean as a languages but never been to Asia before.
I decided to do an working holiday in Korea before I finish my bachelor. Did a language course in Korea and now iam working in a guesthouse/Hotel and write my bachelor thesis.
But I want to work later in Korea at least for 1-2 years.
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White people speaking chinese, korean, japanese, ect is still a pretty rare thing. It's just natural that people are surprised when they meet someone that can speak it (and will praise them when they speak it well, or just when they are being polite and on the topic. Koreans ALWAYS compliment my Korean and it's still pretty shit).
It's not a double-standard because people speaking english as a 2nd language well is not rare in the slightest. It's still impressive and takes lots of work, but it's not as noteworthy in terms of rarity or expectancy.
It's not racist, and I suggest you grow a thicker skin if you actually plan on living full-time in an asian country. You come off as a pretty big douche in your mock conversations.
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On August 07 2012 02:14 TheKwas wrote:
White people speaking chinese, korean, japanese, ect is still a pretty rare thing. It's just natural that people are surprised when they meet someone that can speak it (and will praise them when they speak it well, or just when they are being polite and on the topic. Koreans ALWAYS compliment my Korean and it's still pretty shit).
It's not a double-standard because people speaking english as a 2nd language well is not rare in the slightest. It's still impressive and takes lots of work, but it's not as noteworthy in terms of rarity or expectancy.
It's not racist, and I suggest you grow a thicker skin if you actually plan on living full-time in an asian country. You come off as a pretty big douche in your mock conversations.
OK, but when you know nothing about a topic, you just don't start a conversation about it.
I remember before I tried talking to a professor about Astro Physics, something I know absolutely nothing about and he took the most basic terminology and threw it out there, like a boss, like an expert. I didn't understand just anything he was talking about. And he has job security, at least as a professor. So, he is regarded as an expert, regardless of what else he has done with his life. He put 8-12 years of school in to numbers, sciences, and physics.
Let's take destiny as a secondary example. He studied for 3 and a half years and has no degree because of a similar reason I am posting below.
Me? I study a degree coursework that is almost borderline worthless (at least the degree itself, Bachelor's of Arts in Chinese), because I don't want to teach high school kids for the 49th worst teaching salary in the nation. Expertise-wise, this is worthless where I live. Probably the only reason I'm finishing my degree now is the fact that I will need it to legally obtain working visas in foreign countries or for future government employment here.
EDIT: As for your last sentence, I feel more normal in Taiwan than I do here in America.
EDIT 2: Let me give you another scenario (THIS NEVER HAPPENED, THIS IS JUST PURELY HYPOTHETICAL: If I walk in to a Chinese restaurant and I see an Asian girl wearing a name-tag that says "Sara" and I say, "Sara? Don't they give ya'll names like 'ping'?" And the girl says, "What the fuck are you talking about?" and then I say, "Oh, wow you don't have any accent when you speak English! What, were you born and raised here?" then it isn't profiling? How is that any different from a white guy that gets noticed for speaking Chinese?
If you read the entire OP that I made, you would see, clearly that I stated in some places that there is no fundamental difference between America and a handful of Far Eastern Countries.
From Foreigner to Japanese Citizen.
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Canada616 Posts
Man, you really have a persecution complex. Chill out.
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On August 07 2012 03:00 BrassMonkey27 wrote:
Man, you really have a persecution complex. Chill out.
this is the most insensitive thing you can say... let me guess, you have never learned another language or even been to another country.
OP, I totally agree with you. Life is so crazy these days with everyone being able to communicate in so many different languages.
I really liked the sentence where you said : And because these foreign-born people are Taiwanese nationals, but they are not ethnically Chinese, I would not be surprised to see that they faced discrimination or profiling.
This is a huge issue!!! no matter how or where you grow up, it seems that these days people always _judge you_ based on your skin color :/ This is just racist stereotyping and I don't like it.
However one thing I have started doing is just like korean people , I almost always try to compliment ESL speakers on their english because english is soooo hard to learn.
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On August 07 2012 06:55 xmungam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2012 03:00 BrassMonkey27 wrote:
Man, you really have a persecution complex. Chill out. this is the most insensitive thing you can say... let me guess, you have never learned another language or even been to another country. OP, I totally agree with you. Life is so crazy these days with everyone being able to communicate in so many different languages. I really liked the sentence where you said : And because these foreign-born people are Taiwanese nationals, but they are not ethnically Chinese, I would not be surprised to see that they faced discrimination or profiling. This is a huge issue!!! no matter how or where you grow up, it seems that these days people always _judge you_ based on your skin color :/ This is just racist stereotyping and I don't like it. However one thing I have started doing is just like korean people , I almost always try to compliment ESL speakers on their english because english is soooo hard to learn.
On topic: Personally, I've been to some places where I was the only white guy in town for a city with a population of one million people (I am of course, talking about a small, tier-3 level city, which is more appropriately known as a "county").
I've seen tons of Vietnamese people with Taiwanese citizenship.
Subjective remark: I usually don't tell people "Your English is really good." because I've heard the sentence, "Your Chinese is really good." over one hundred times now, and I think to myself, "They must be as annoyed to hear this crap as I am."
Other thoughts:
1) I probably should have put another Author's note in this thread - "Please only comment if you hold a passport and a visa / stamp for a country that is not Canada."
2) I'm probably not staying in the U.S. for the rest of my life.
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You are either dumb, a complete douchebag or both.
On August 07 2012 02:14 TheKwas wrote:
It's not a double-standard because people speaking english as a 2nd language well is not rare in the slightest. It's still impressive and takes lots of work, but it's not as noteworthy in terms of rarity or expectancy.
This. People are not racist when they are surprised upon hearing you speak Chinese because you are Caucasian and Caucasians are expected to speak English or other languages spoken by Caucasians such as the European languages or Russian. Because that is the norm, the status quo. People base their standards and thus reactions on what is the norm and what they perceive as normal due to the conditions and circumstances they live and grew up in.
If a considerable population of Chinese speaking Caucasians would accumulate people would eventually stop being surprised and think "hey, he must be one of those". Stereotypes exist because society as a collective creates and maintains them due to common traits of the respective people that are considered more or less unique to them, they are being promoted on TV, in advertisements, by politicians etc. And that's all there is too it.
If you don't like how the people in the west react to your rare and remarkable ability (being fluent in Chinese as a white guy) then that's totally fine, move to Taiwan and be happy there, but stop acting like a butthurt, defensive little elitist who seems to think he's better than everyone else.
edit: You seem to believe that globalisation is working towards weakening the connection of "kin color, citizenship, and mother-tongue". That is a misconception, the opposite is the case. Discrimination based on ethnicity is on the rise. Nationalistic and anti-islam parties are gaining power in Europe and look at how foreigners (non-white foreigners in particular) are being treated in Korea and Japan for instance.
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Well, I guess people are surprised because it is incredibly difficult to learn Chinese if you grow up speaking "western" languages.
The pronounciation of Chinese is so different from English (a bunch of tonal changes which are incredibly important), and the way the language is fundamentally set up is much different than Western languages (I assume the same is somewhat true for other east Asian languages, but I don't know for sure).
If you are someone age 18 or up who has little to no experience with Chinese, learning the language is a huge task because you need to basically relearn language from the roots.
Met a caucasian man in Shanghai who was fluent in Chinese (absolutely fluent, talked like a native, even used figures of speech and poetic allusions). Turns out he had spent 8 years learning the language, and had subsequently been travelling between the US and China to stay "in practice". The Chinese people were amazed, because it is so rare to see a non-Asian person able to speak Chinese so well.
OP, is it profiling? Sure, but use it to your advantage. People expect less from you (not knowing how to speak Chinese), so impress them and create a more favorable impression. Use it to your advantage.
Source: Personal experiences
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On August 07 2012 02:35 Enders116 wrote:
EDIT 2: Let me give you another scenario (THIS NEVER HAPPENED, THIS IS JUST PURELY HYPOTHETICAL: If I walk in to a Chinese restaurant and I see an Asian girl wearing a name-tag that says "Sara" and I say, "Sara? Don't they give ya'll names like 'ping'?" And the girl says, "What the fuck are you talking about?" and then I say, "Oh, wow you don't have any accent when you speak English! What, were you born and raised here?" then it isn't profiling? How is that any different from a white guy that gets noticed for speaking Chinese?
It's not the same at all. In america, being Asian, having an English name, and speaking English at a high level is all REALLY common. Even in areas with small Asian populations, the Asians that DO live there tend to be able to speak English at competent levels. The vast majority of the time in Asian countries like Taiwan, China, Korea and (to a lesser extent?) Japan, the same isn't true for the minority white population. Maybe only at elite language schools.
If you read the entire OP that I made, you would see, clearly that I stated in some places that there is no fundamental difference between America and a handful of Far Eastern Countries.
Point out where exactly. Where in Asia exactly do most white individuals speak the native language at a competent level (the same way that most immigrants or ethnic minorities speak english at a competent level in America)? There's no place like that as far as I know.
Sure, it's profiling, but it's pretty damn accurate profiling. It's also not socially harmful (in your case) to any significant degree. I mean, you're still just complaining that people praise you for your chinese ability.
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In case you aren't aware the conversation examples you included in the OP make you sound like a jerk.
On August 07 2012 02:35 Enders116 wrote:
EDIT 2: Let me give you another scenario (THIS NEVER HAPPENED, THIS IS JUST PURELY HYPOTHETICAL: If I walk in to a Chinese restaurant and I see an Asian girl wearing a name-tag that says "Sara" and I say, "Sara? Don't they give ya'll names like 'ping'?" And the girl says, "What the fuck are you talking about?" and then I say, "Oh, wow you don't have any accent when you speak English! What, were you born and raised here?" then it isn't profiling? How is that any different from a white guy that gets noticed for speaking Chinese?
Lol, if you think your example and someone being surprised that you know fluent Chinese are equivalent then I'm not sure what to say. In the US if you see an Asian they probably know English, if you see a white dude, they almost certainly do not know Chinese. Therefore, it is a bit interesting when people come across a white person who can speak Chinese. I am unsure why this is such a hard concept to grasp.
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EPT
